emmissions on older cars

workin class · FINCH, ONT

emmissions on older cars

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

I brought this topic up on the Cdn. Poncho site & am wondering if anyone here has been stopped last summer for a Emmisions componet check in your older vehicle w/a engine swap?? The MOE was hitting the Durham Region [east of Toronto] quite hard last summer at the shows & cruise's. Handing out fines for each pc. missing that should be on the year of engine, NOT the yr. of the car!!!!! They waited for event to be over then pulled them over out on the street, or stopped on the way to event.

workin class · FINCH, ONT

I stopped working on my 53 Plymouth just because I dont want to even put up with this crap it has a sbc with an S10 clip. The Valiant came up cheap so I jumped ship mid stream and parked the 53 out back before I put any more money into it for no reason. When we find out what the B.S. liberal government and the green emission police figure out what they are doing its staying put.

Adslow65 · LINDSAY, ONT

That's ridiculous they were waiting until the show was over then pulled people over... That's a DICK move. People just out wanting to enjoy their vehicles and they gotta put up with this stuff? So why aren't they stopping these big trucks and vehicles that spew out thick smoke everywhere? If its suppose to be about "pollution" where's the emission control for these offenders?? In my opinion those trucks are a bigger problem then some guy who is missing a cat from his hot rod!!!

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Adslow65 wrote:
That's ridiculous they were waiting until the show was over then pulled people over... That's a DICK move. People just out wanting to enjoy their vehicles and they gotta put up with this stuff? So why aren't they stopping these big trucks and vehicles that spew out thick smoke everywhere? If its suppose to be about "pollution" where's the emission control for these offenders?? In my opinion those trucks are a bigger problem then some guy who is missing a cat from his hot rod!!!

Hey Adam,agree it's ridiculous, but as we said at one cruise, "it's like like shootin fish in a barrel" lots of "possible" offenders all in one spot!!! Think it's $366 fine for each pc. missing & that adds up quick when there are 3 or 4 + pcs. missing. Just a big TAX grab in my opinion & others as well. The EMO didn't make public the changes in requirements & seems to make changes at "whim" & it's up to you to prove yourself innocent, as far as they are concerned, give out the ticket, if any doubt on the engine #'s in their computor, & you prove otherwise!!! If your engine is "pre" emm. then no problem

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

Never heard of this before. I thought that once a vehicle is 25 years old, no checks. Typical government money grab, as the whole Drive Clean thing is and always has been.

We dont have any emissions testing in my neck of the woods, surprised the hell out of me when I moved here 5 years ago. Adam, do they have it over in the Collingwood area?

RAT BOY · TORONTO, ONT

On a some what related issue, my 93 Fleetwood still passed the dyno test, still retains all factory equipment, has in excess of 300,000 km. It really pissed off the E tech when he tore off the printout and this old land barge read PASS. What is your experience on old cars you own that are 1988 and newer and need a PASS to be registered.

I agree with an earlier suggestion on hobby cars, its time to get organized and do some lobbying of our "esteemed" Provincial elected officials.

-- Edited by RAT BOY on Saturday 11th of February 2012 10:54:11 PM

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

poncho62 wrote:
Never heard of this before. I thought that once a vehicle is 25 years old, no checks. Typical government money grab, as the whole Drive Clean thing is and always has been.

We dont have any emissions testing in my neck of the woods, surprised the hell out of me when I moved here 5 years ago. Adam, do they have it over in the Collingwood area?

It's not a emm. test of the car, they are checking for engine swap, & what is supposed to be on that engine , egr, cats, charcoal cannister etc. Visual check, if it's not there & eng.# require it " BUSTED"

Bradshaw · NORWOOD, ONT

I had a friend in Oshawa that got stopped .He didn't have the hose from Valve cover to Breather and got fined then had to go and show them it was fixed.. &*((&^*&( ards disbelief

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

We had this discussion over on RROO quite awhile ago .Many in this area have been stopped and fined ,some written of the road.The new rules are what ever polution devices were on the car(not just the engine)in the year of the engine manufacture now have to be on the car and the engine .That includes air pump ,canaster cats and all the erg,egr and all the othe things with initals.Not shure about crate motors cause they were never on a car but you won't win that one on the side of the road with the sniffer cops.There book is the bible and you are guilty till you prove otherwise.So be warned they are out there and they do mean business so save those pre 70 blocks and heads cause they are going to be very valuable very soon unless the rules change again.I don't know how things are on the other side of Toronto but on the east side of the big smoke you have to be careful . Ed

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Hey Poncho this is not an E test to get your sticker this is a truck on the side of the road like a RIDE check .They pull you over make you pop the hood chek all the engine #s find out what all polution wise the the car that engine came out of had on it and start adding up the tickets,one guy in Cobourg that I heard about was able to rack up over 2grand in fines for missing equipment.That will spoil your day. Ed

RAT BOY · TORONTO, ONT

I am right in Toronto, I have only seen the roadside checks once and it was near a transfer station so they were obviously concerned with trucks.

I have heard of many incidents most from dualquadPete. What I don't understand is how they find the engine numbers and casting numbers once the engine is in the car. That's got to be tough in stock application.

workin class · FINCH, ONT

on a small block chevy the # are on the block deck. I hear if you deck the block the # go bye bye but no one know if they can go after other #

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

SBC numbers are on the block passenger side on that flat surface infront of the head and just behind the water pump .Suposidly that is the one they go by and not the casting number near the bellhousing at least on a SBC don't know about other manufactures. Ed

Ratmotor · PARRY SOUND, ONT

They might have a fun time trying that for my car. The engine was a 330 horse Crusader Marine big block out of a boat. Wonder what emission equipment that might of had....

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Like was said before it is up to you to prove it ,do you think you will win this arguement on the side of the road with these guys.I have even heard MOT guys say that these enviorment guys are real hardasses. Ed

workin class · FINCH, ONT

Like I said it was easier to buy my stock slant 6.

RAT BOY · TORONTO, ONT

Having a family member in the Law Enforcement community in Ontario I can tell you that these guys wouldn't stop you unless there was a high probablitly of finding something, they just don't like wasting time and not writting tickets. That's the goal for them, writting tickets. I have always maintained that a pre 75 stock appearing car is an unlikely candidate for a stop but that's just my logic. Customized and Hot Rods of course would be good candidates.

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

Dont think its the police that are doing these checks, its the MOT guys.....

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Dualquadpete, thanks for posting this topic.

Important information for everyone here,, getting worse out there.

Controls and regulations: "It just never lets up!"

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

These guys are not cops they are enviorment enforcement .They are not the MTO either they are a seperate enforcement arm although they all work together together when they have a blitz or a money grab if you will.They will sit in the lot next to my shop and watch traffic go buy and when they see something promising(usually an 80s pickup)off they go then 15or20 minutes later back they come to wate again.they are not interested in brakes or wipers or holes in the floor (MOT territory)not interested in lights or ins or stickers(Cops)they only check polution equip.Wher this came from in the last couple of years is a mistery to me I first learned about them when I went out and asked what dept they were from and what they were checking for . Ed

Adslow65 · LINDSAY, ONT

Still seems crazy to me!! There are so many polluting vehicles out there that are way worse than some guy in his hot rod with no cats!! WHY are they not "blitzing" these other vehicles the same way? Maybe they are, but I have never seen it! Just a stupid money grab... and one I don't feel is fair.

spinner43 · NEW DUNDEE, ONT

The "Geese Police" as we call them. I have had a lot of dealings with them but only on big trucks never on passenger vehicles. They were always doing roadside opacity tests to see if we cranked the old mechanical pumps or modified the ECMs on the electronic engines. How could they argue with a person that used a newer emissions block but all of the remaining engine equipment original to the vehicle such as a '69 Chevelle with a '78 truck block? The truck had EGR but the Chevelle didn't. Does anyone know where their vehicle inspection guidelines are published? I have the brown MTO book at work I will check in it and we have just shut down our emissions test station so I will check in the literature pertaining to it.

RAT BOY · TORONTO, ONT

What do these guys drive, can we outrun them ? biggrin

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

This is a good topic for sure. I'd really like to know the jurisdiction they are running under (federal or provincial). Somebody really needs to challenge this. It sounds like harassment to me. I guess if driving a hot rod grind the block numbers off. I guess they have to prove what your running to fine you.

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

This subject is very frustrating to read For those of us that live out side the 401 corridor its not as likely to happen....

But think about it How many hobby cars have all original motors? It means that 90% of every vehicle pulled over, would fail..

A lot of car guys are not up on the numbers, so how is some 20-30 year becoming a expert?

How would they know a 53 with a sbc and S10 clip is not right?

Someone better start writing the MP MPP's

The miles we drive are so tiny compared to the rest of the population

Makes me sick to read about it

Sounds like the waste from a male cow

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

I have noticed an interesting pattern concerning politicans and the general public concerning older cars .A lot of the older politicans were also vintage car collecters and not so many headakes for all enthusiasts.Now younger politicans not so interested in vintage cars more headaches for us.back then everybody loved an old car not so many headaches for us ,now everybody wants electric ,trouble for us.It is what we have to deal with.Good news rodders usually find a way. Ed

Hywayhauler · SUDBURY, ONT

Good old Northern Ontario...NO emmisions up here in Sudbury!!!

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

poncho62 wrote:
I hear ya Pete....I have traveled a lot in the states and you see these old geezers that can hardly walk driving these 45ft motorhomes with a full sized car in tow. Its a wonder that there aren't more crashes.

As for the emissions, its all BS...my F1 had absolutely no emission stuff from the factory, oil leaked right onto the road...Now it has a later engine with a PCV system....Whats better?

I hear ya with the PCV being better. That's not good enough for the province of California Jr.

Here's the exact text of the MOE law:

Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods

4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

This is just great as I've got myself a nice aftermarket Edelbrock EFI manifold. Of coarse it has no provisions for an EGR valve. I'm sure I can get a pair of cats installed on my rod but jeez.

Even though I will be producing a cleaner burn than anything from 1941, its still not good enough for these bastards.

We'll have to get a couple of the purists to leave the cruise night first and call us if they see the roadside checkpoint. Then again, they usually hate the things we do to these cars and would let us drive right into the trap.

-- Edited by 123pugsy on Sunday 12th of February 2012 02:58:10 PM

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

I e-mailed my MPP here in Durham Region, got a reply back that I'm not the 1st. one to notify him of this situation!!! He has forwarded all the enquires to MOE & is expecting a reply. If it's anything like any other replys, it will just be a bunch of B/S about how great the Mc GOOFY Gov. is doing & pat themselves on the back. You should see the reply the MOT sent back about down grading the need for a Class A lic. for RV's being towed, over 48OO Kg's They said they think that the dealers selling these units can give proper "driver training" to the people buying it, & don't want to "hurt" the RV industry or tourism, & I "think" dropped some of the weight req. from tow vehicles. All of this leads up to a dissaster going down the road!!! Can't see the dealers giving driver training, [take the money & run] too big a trailer on a 1/2 ton???, & no clue how to drive it in a "dicey" situation Good idea to e-mail or Call your MPP on the emm. stuff or anything else, keeps them up to date on whats going on!!!

workin class · FINCH, ONT

dualquadpete wrote:
I e-mailed my MPP here in Durham Region, got a reply back that I'm not the 1st. one to notify him of this situation!!! He has forwarded all the enquires to MOE & is expecting a reply. If it's anything like any other replys, it will just be a bunch of B/S about how great the Mc GOOFY Gov. is doing & pat themselves on the back. You should see the reply the MOT sent back about down grading the need for a Class A lic. for RV's being towed, over 48OO Kg's They said they think that the dealers selling these units can give proper "driver training" to the people buying it, & don't want to "hurt" the RV industry or tourism, & I "think" dropped some of the weight req. from tow vehicles. All of this leads up to a dissaster going down the road!!! Can't see the dealers giving driver training, [take the money & run] too big a trailer on a 1/2 ton???, & no clue how to drive it in a "dicey" situation Good idea to e-mail or Call your MPP on the emm. stuff or anything else, keeps them up to date on whats going on!!!

Im an lead R.V. tech and there is no way in hell that im signing off on some ones drivers training. Thank god we have a know it all tech that will do it you know the type all thumbs cant tell them anything. Yeah hes the man for the job. Stay away from big R.V.S heading down the high way. I give them lots of room. Most of thies juys have never pulled anything bigger than a utility trailer now they are pulling a house. I believe its the governments way of passing the buck and later the leagle resposability

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

I hear ya Pete....I have traveled a lot in the states and you see these old geezers that can hardly walk driving these 45ft motorhomes with a full sized car in tow. Its a wonder that there aren't more crashes.

As for the emissions, its all BS...my F1 had absolutely no emission stuff from the factory, oil leaked right onto the road...Now it has a later engine with a PCV system....Whats better?

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

Good thing I put my 1976 vintage 350 in my truck in 1993......better make it last

Torquewar · DORCHESTER, ONT

Yes this is a definite brain hurting topic and potentially a wallet one to. I remember in Car Craft there was article about how guys were getting by the smog police with fake cats /egrs/canisters . This all was to appease the visual that most times got you a see you later.
I believe it was in the late 80s, gotta try to find it in my stacks of mags.

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

I have a friend with an 85 Mustang, done up pretty good......He went through a lot of BS, hollowing out the cats etc thinking it made it go faster..Every time the "E" test came up, he had to go under it, put on the OEM cats, put all the stuff back on for the test....It still just barely squeeked by.....After a while, he found a guy that would somehow test one car and apply it to his "E" test sheet.....for a few hundred dollars.....Lots of that stuff goes on...I guess these are the guys they say they are after.....Thing is now my friends car hasnt been driven more than 100 miles or so per year

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Good post Pugsey nice to see the regs .It is still confusing if you built and regestered your rod befor 99 you are ok but if you put a new engine in it after that you are not unless it is an older engin then its ok maybe Or something .

Hywayhauler · SUDBURY, ONT

123pugsy wrote:
poncho62 wrote:

I hear ya with the PCV being better. That's not good enough for the province of California Jr.

Here's the exact text of the MOE law:
Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods
4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.
(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

This is just great as I've got myself a nice aftermarket Edelbrock EFI manifold. Of coarse it has no provisions for an EGR valve. I'm sure I can get a pair of cats installed on my rod but jeez.
Even though I will be producing a cleaner burn than anything from 1941, its still not good enough for these bastards.
We'll have to get a couple of the purists to leave the cruise night first and call us if they see the roadside checkpoint. Then again, they usually hate the things we do to these cars and would let us drive right into the trap.

-- Edited by 123pugsy on Sunday 12th of February 2012 02:58:10 PM

Well, after reading the regs...It's a good thing I don't have a "motor" in any of my rides. "Motors" are electric... biggrin

It's a good thing we all have engines.

At least when they write the laws, they can maybe try and use the proper terminology???

Oh well, like I said, none of that crap up here in Sudbury yet! They would have to enforce emissions comming from Vale's Super Stack first, and we all know thats not gonna happen...lol

I am glad I don't live down south...you guys make it complicated.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

You may not have emm. testing up there but your vehicle is still "illegal" anywhere in Ontario if you have late model "engine' [74 & up I think] with out the "junk" on it!!! It just has to be on the car for their "visual" roadside insp. Still a lot of "grey" areas when you read it, BUT your guilty if they think so & as said before it's up to you to "PROVE" your not in court. I know of a few instances where the've scouped the plates right then & there, some for emm. infractions & others, when the OPP are with them for "historic plates" on a MODIFIED car but thats another topic!!!!!!

Hywayhauler · SUDBURY, ONT

I'm good then...1965 Corvette 327 SBC. Casting numbers don't lie...****, I'd even run leaded gas if I could find it...lol

VirgilHilts · BELWOOD, ONT

Hywayhauler wrote:
Well, after reading the regs...It's a good thing I don't have a "motor" in any of my rides. "Motors" are electric...
It's a good thing we all have engines.
At least when they write the laws, they can maybe try and use the proper terminology???
Oh well, like I said, none of that crap up here in Sudbury yet! They would have to enforce emissions comming from Vale's Super Stack first, and we all know thats not gonna happen...lol
I am glad I don't live down south...you guys make it complicated.

Here we go again! a Motor is NOT exclusively electric.

A motor is an engine but an engine is not neccessarily a motor ( as in a seige engine) The word engine BTW comes from the same latin root as the word ingenious.

and remember when the weather is better we engineist need to watch out for enginecycle riders! Ormaybe that should be motorists and motorcycle?

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Hywayhauler wrote:
I'm good then...1965 Corvette 327 SBC. Casting numbers don't lie...****, I'd even run leaded gas if I could find it...lol

Lead additive works!!!! Have to put that in the 64. It's getting hard to find "non -eythanol" fuel as well, think Shell & Esso are the only ones w/out it!! Could be wrong there, I know Petro Can just started adding it to there crap!!! This syuff they call GAS doesn't last any more than a couple of weeks now before it goes "OFF

RAT BOY · TORONTO, ONT

dualquadpete wrote:
Hywayhauler wrote:
I'm good then...1965 Corvette 327 SBC. Casting numbers don't lie...****, I'd even run leaded gas if I could find it...lol
Lead additive works!!!! Have to put that in the 64. It's getting hard to find "non -eythanol" fuel as well, think Shell & Esso are the only ones w/out it!! Could be wrong there, I know Petro Can just started adding it to there crap!!! This syuff they call GAS doesn't last any more than a couple of weeks now before it goes "OFF

Shoot me a PM I have about 20 gallons of 104+ Octane & Lead additive. I can let it go cheap.

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Has anyone tried an e-test just for ****s and giggels. What if you got a pass? I wonder how that would work in front of a judge. Maybe the corn fuel burns clean enough that we don't need all of the original crap. I think they would be scratching their heads if you could prove a pass. confuse

Sacotu · COBOURG, ONT

the vehicle that flat black had mentioned with over 2000 in fines was a lifted 52 gmc on a newer chassis. i've seen the truck and if you know cars it obvious that its a newer chassis. i had talk to the owner and he said they had already pulled someone else over when he went by. they dropped what they were doing and gave chase. they asked to see his engine. while one flipped the book open on their truck one used a mirror to check the number on the block. when they had figure out the year of his motor the one guy asked does it have such and such and as each answer of no was given another fine was added. needless to say he hasn't driven the truck since.

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

Is that the truck that used to be parked by the gate at the Ancaster swap meets, at the old fairgrounds....5 yrs ago?

Sacotu · COBOURG, ONT

was it red with flames. could be.

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

Yeah sat real high.....wheels stuck out a mile

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

I do emission testing and repairs, we are only required to check to make sure the convertor is on and the fuel neck looks OK. We have no other authority for visual infractions. The government has hired a company named "Parsons protect air" to do all the dirty work for them. IE regulations, training, audits and ensuring the equipment is within specs. The machines are re calibrated every 3 days. I have never seen the MOE in either shop where I have worked. The only time they step in is during investigation of testing infractions. I have seen all kinds of different stuff pass and fail that would make you wonder. Like the 500 Caddy engine in a 87 Dodge pick up. Long story short, I cobbled up Q jet carb out of some crusty parts and the truck blew almost as clean as a new car even without convertors on it. (I still have a copy of that etest). Do I agree with etesting? Not entirely, (but it helps pay the bills) but nobody wants to breathe dirty air either.
Still this road enforcement is as close to legislating us out of a hobby as I can think of. With the law written the way it is there is hardly a car at a car show that's legal.
We as a group of hobbyists really need to band together and do something about this before they ticket us all off the road.

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

I just found this link http://www.iwebhosting.ca/svao/driveclean.html I think it will be helpful if we had a lawyer on here that could give us the bottom line. You gotta love the net

-- Edited by Modfather on Tuesday 14th of February 2012 08:56:23 AM

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

I havent checked all of my casting #s yet but I was told both of my small blocks are pre 75. Where would you check to see what stuff you need on the engine post 75? Is there a website somewhere? hmm