MOE Emissions petition

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

MOE Emissions petition

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Geez I wish you would re-think how this petition is worded !! There's no way the Government will even consider this proposal, and it makes us all look like we don't care about the environment. I don't think enough thought has gone onto this IMHO.

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

From what I was told today when I stopped into Clark's office to pick up some hard copies, this has already been tabled in the Ontario legislature as it reads. It's now up to us to get the required signatures to support it!

69SS454 · MILTON, ONT

Sorry...Who wrote it and who tabled it?.
I was lead to believe that any proposed revised legislation would be written in laymans terms and available in March. Then when that was available it could be read and a stance (if needed) could be brought forward AFTER those documents were made available. Whatever happened with that? Where is the SVAO? Their website has not had an update since summer 2011.

-- Edited by 69SS454 on Friday 8th of June 2012 08:34:15 PM

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

Yup, I agree with Hemi43 ... the gov't has nothing to gain or won't feel like they are gaining anything by voting for this.

Look at this from a (public office holding) tree huggers point of view, there doesn't appear to be anything in this petition that would help convince them this is a good idea (as far as the environment goes). The emissions laws are there already and we simply want to abolish them when it comes to our cars ... I don't see that happening. I see where you are going as far as the amount of money pumped into the economy by old cars but asking for the elimination of the present laws governing older cars and emissions is NOT helping the environment at all. That petition is going to be one very hard sell.

I have laid out my suggestions (keep in mind, these are just suggestions) in the other post titled emissions.

As I see it, the gov't needs to see we are at least trying to help the environment not release ourselves from any responibilty to it.

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

Repowering with a newer engine is definitely better for the environment, getting rid of a road draft tube and installing a PCV is 100% better, late model power with an O/D will burn less fuel, computer controlled EFI is far superior to a carb set-up, you could easily ad 10 more items. Now I didn't write the petition, only posting it here so others can get involved should they choose, no matter how you look at it, it's better than what is currently on the books and a step in the right direction.

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

hassling old car enthusiasts is easy money for the ministry, do you think they will be willing to give up such an easy revenue stream? the only thing dalton cares about now is bringing in revenue, he doesnt care where it comes from.

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Okay! I've printed off couple of dozen copies and have gathered 20 signatures today (Sunday morning). I sent out 40 emails last night, the balance will go out tonight. Don't worry about the details of the wording, if J. O'Toole is going to re write it to correct wording. I have faith in this MPP. He's the guy that got us Y.O.M plates.
Get going and start collecting signatures at EVERY Cruise night and car show. If you have never got politically motivated this is the time you need to start. the address to send it to is included. DO NOT wait for someone else to do this. This time it's your turn!

The Kid

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Wonder if the MOE will be down at the Toronto Indy next wknd. handing out tickets to the "new" 2012 race cars for Emm. violations??? Bet they put out more in that race than we would in 10yrs. Also NOISE violations might come into too!!!!! They are running on the "STREET" so why not DING them as well, they are all in one spot, just like a cruise in or show????

will · WALKERTON, ONT

After reading about the Ministery of Enviroment (MOE) petition here on our Ontario Rodders site, I decided to investigate more and what I have found out so far is that this is a big deal and we should all be concerned. Just to get your attention - an Oakville area hobbyist was recently issued $4,900.00 in fines and the plates removed from his vehicle by MOE inspectors after attending a cruise nite. The complete story was written up in the May 21, 2012 issue of Old Autos. These inspectors are just doing their job as layed out the way the regulations are written for "kit cars, Rebuilt cars and Hot Rods." It is the legistation that needs to be changed, to something we can live with and that needs to be done through our local MPP's, but this is up to us to make our local MPP's aware of our problem by sending them copies of signatures on this petition. The originals should all be sent to John O'Toole in Bowmanville Ontario.
This petition was made up by the staff of John O'Toole who is the MPP for Durham.
The above copy of the petition sent by Oldkoot lists Steve Clark MPP in Brockville Ontario who is also collecting signatures. My understanding is these two MPP's are preparing to present this in the Ontario Legislature. Our support to them will come from signed petitions they receive from us. We also must copy our local MPP's as well as the Minister of the Enviroment.
There is much more to read and understand of this complex issue.
The complete regulation can be found at - Google Ontario regulation 361/98. The June 18, 2012 issue of Old Autos in the Letters section has letters from Bob Purdy, Dean Renwick, Nate Salter & Chris Whillans. These gentlemen are very much in touch with this issue and explain it very well.
Bob McJannett from Performance Improvements has devoted a page on his web site to this isuue as well as provided a download of the petition form. -- http://www.performanceimprovements.com/ click on petition.
I don't pretend to have all the answers or all the understanding but what I do know is that our hobby could be in problems if something is not done to change the rules.
All we have to do is download the petition and take it to our local car shows / cruise nites etc. and get signatures. The real work is going to come from the MPP's who are presenting it in the legislature and from our local MPP's who do the voting. They all need our support. Let's help.
Cheers
John

will · WALKERTON, ONT

Does anybody know if the MOE inspectors were watching the Owen Sound Car Show at the airport on Sunday July10th? I left about 2.30 PM and noticed a white van parked just up the road from the entrance. I could not read the lettering on the door, but he sure looked like he was watching for something.
If so, was anybody stopped and checked?

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

It's Friday, so I will be at the Bradford Back Alley Cruisers Cruise Night, since I'm a member. We are out EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT year round. If the weather is less than perfect we are just down the road at WENDY's Hamburgers. I will have copies of the petition for you to sign or pickup copies of to get signed. I'm trying to get copies out to every Back Alley Cruise Night as quickly as I can.
FYI our Cruise Nights are in Bradford Friday, Woodbridge Monday, Midland Sunday, Niagara Falls Sunday, Scarborough Tuesday. I have also sent petition stuff to many more Cruise Nights, hopefully the petition is wherever you go as soon as possible. Remember only sign one time. If you are collecting signatures you can drop completed petitions off at ANY Performance Improvements store, or Bring them to Bradford, I'll drop them off.
This is a serious matter, let's do a good job!

hemi43 · ONTARIO

If your truck is an 1980, and you had no cats or air pump, then you are guilty.

What I don't agree with is the MOE touching your truck !! I f they want to do visual check to see if the equipment is installed that's fine, but they should not be allowed to start taking parts off.

Good for you for taking it to court, but I'm not surprised that you still got fined. Unfortunately, ignorance of the law won't get you off !!

-- Edited by hemi43 on Monday 25th of June 2012 09:01:44 AM

80GMC · New Member

The MOE hang around Cobourg like a bad stench. They hang around the local mechanic's shops and bust people comming and going. I dropped my mom off at a muffler shop and seen them eyeing my truck up so I waited 20 minutes before I left. As soon as my front tires hit the road the cherries came on and they pulled me over, took my licience and told me to meet them at there checkpoint down the road. I have never been so mad in my life as 3 guys who knew nothing about my truck started tearing parts off for no good reason. After about 20 minutes of this I finally snapped and told them to get away from it as they took the breather off and then couldn't get it back in place and they took off the vaccum lines and couldn't put them back on. They threatened me by saying if I don't go for a walk they will fine me $700 for having no pollution pump as well as no cats.

I ended up with $500 some odd dollars in fines and they made me get the truck towed all for not having cats. I went to court to fight it and the JP said " I don't want to hear your **** don't waste my time, here's your fine." When I had the new exhaust system put on if someone had of told me I needed the cats I would have done it. The trucks 10 years older then me how am I supposed to know? lol

WEDGE · PERTH, ONT

Whether these folks have the skill or knowledge is not important. The law says they have the right. You can fight the fight or you can fight to change the law.

The next fight is to keep people who do not know what they are doing to touch your ride. That fight requires you to change the law as well. Remember that if a MOE peron does damage you have the right to take them to court for the repairs, the issue is you will loose most times because you are trying to explain to someone (magistrate or judge) who also does not have the knowledge and has been trained to believe the enforcement officers.

Fight to change the laws you have a better chance of doing that then you have fighting to change the enforcement of the law.

In Ontario the "green meanies" rule, on the highway, in the air, on the ground, and in the production and distribution of energy. No matter which political party is in power this will continue. Change the law.

will · WALKERTON, ONT

Sign the petition - email your MPP and ask for support of the bill to change the law. It really is that easy!

Skelly · New Member

Hey, Guys...
Just new to the site and as "P"-ed off as all of you are about this MOE cash grab, (think Larry and Curly would agree with MOE?? Sounds like they wrote it!)
Years ago, the Ontario farm community gathered at Queens Park to make a point, and I think it would be a good idea to take a page from their book and do the same thing IN HUGE NUMBERS on the day these petitions are presented to Parlaiment. There is strength in numbers. This could also gather some public support from non-car folks, and would surely make the News on some level. Public support would be priceless.
I'm going to work on my Hot-Rod RIGHT NOW to cool off.
Drive it like a rental!!
Skelly

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

Skelly wrote:
Hey, Guys...
Just new to the site and as "P"-ed off as all of you are about this
Years ago, the Ontario farm community gathered at Queens Park to make a point, and I think it would be a good idea to take a page from their book and do the same thing IN HUGE NUMBERS on the day these petitions are presented to Parlaiment.

Not trying to sound like an idiot (it comes naturally) but did the "drive your tractor to Queens Park" actually accomplish anything?

Let me be clear here ... I am NOT against doing this sort of thing, just curious if it actually does any good. All I ever remember about these types of "protests in numbers" is hearing how horrible the traffic in the area was because of the protest. I can see a "regular person" being stuck in traffic for hours trying to leave the city, and feeling nothing but anger and hatred towards the "car people" behind the traffic issues.

My thought is that "causing traffic mayhem" may bring us to the attention of a great many people BUT ... are they going to be sympathetic to our cause or have we just made a LOT of new enemies?

Skelly · New Member

Hey, Rusty N's...

Your point is well taken, but I see it as an opportunity for EVERYONE including the policy makers to VISUALLY know of our plight. I suppose timing would be everything here, as we would NOT want to show up during morning or afternoon rush-hours. Yeah, no good making enemies here, eh?

I whole heartedly agree with the petition campaign, but something tells me a piece of paper with alot of names on it can easily be trash-canned/ignored. Hard to do that with a few hundred hot-rods parked on your front lawn.

Anyway, I'm going to get my petition out there no matter what, and call my MPP... maybe drive over to his place.... now there might be a better idea!

So, folks, there's my 2 cents worth. you get what you pay for, eh?

Skelly

workin class · FINCH, ONT

when the farmers took the tractors to parliament hill in Ottawa they slowed me from going to work. I was pissed at first then listened to there plight as I drove past the tractors I honked and gave the thumbs up all the way past the guys standing up for there way of life. Not such a bad idea.

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Why is there so much whining and bitching instead of getting going to get this petition gathered? All the whining in the world is only going to cause more and more people to dismiss this, when it is their signatures that are required.
If you can't write a letter COPY one of the letters to the MPP's that you've read, change what you have to. Get it mailed to your MPP. If that is more than you can handle GO TO your MPP's office and ask them what they want the Letter to say!
If you do not know who or where your MPP is google MPP and the name of your town. The answer is probably correct.
If everyone sits back and does nothing there are going to be a TREMENDOUS number of vehicles parked in garages and for sale with dramatically lowered values in a REAL buyer's market. Who are you gonna sell them to? Who in HELL is going to buy a $3000 engine that they Can't operate in Ontario?
Do you think the TOOTH FAIRY is gonna fix this?
Disregard the rhetoric that goes on at EVERY election " does not matter who I vote for , they are all no good. It's not worth voting." Well they are in there because somebody voted and they represent US! This thing is NOT gonna fix it self. GET OFF YOUR ASS!

I'm well past 250 signatures collected and all I have to tell people is "We just want the Environmental Protection Act altered to match Drive Clean, and, we want the cars to pass vehicle year of manufacture emission requirements. NO ONE has refused to sign yet. Many sign because they have had enough of OUR elected Officials telling us what to do! They are fighting back on that point alone.

Pick the reason to get involved and get going.

the Kid

Skelly · New Member

Couldn't agree with you more, Kid!
Guys... let's pick our fight and get to it!!
Skelly

Gearhead · ELORA, ONT

Maybe the MOE should pick on the clowns who purposely black-smoke their diesel pickups and leave the hotrodders alone for having the wrong year block in their car....rediculous.

-- Edited by Gearhead on Saturday 21st of July 2012 07:47:28 AM

will · WALKERTON, ONT

Hey guys

Here is the copy of a letter I received back from my MPP after sending her a snail mail letter asking for her support in our petition. As you can see in the last paragraph she does support what we are doing. It is that simple!

Sign the petition, contact your MPP, make them aware of what we are asking and ask for their support vote when this is presented.
They are the ones who have the vote. It is them that we need to have on our side. You have a choice - do nothing or do something. Your choice.

Thanks
John

Ontario Regulation 361/98

Thompson-co, Lisa lisa.thompsonco@pc.ola.org

John:

Thank you for contacting my office with your concerns about the Ministry of Environment's enforcement of Ontario Regulation 361/98 - Environmental Protection Act Motor Vehicles.

I have recently written to Minister Bradley on behalf of a constituent in Kincardine, who contacted my office with serious concerns about increased Ministry of the Environment (Compliance Branch) enforcement of collector vehicle emissions and component compliance. He had read that the OPP, Ministry of Transportation and Ministry of the Environment staff may be conducting roadside inspections throughout Ontario this summer. These inspections would supposedly require the vehicle owner to prove the year of manufacture of the engine and the year of its installation in the vehicle.

It is my understanding that Mr. Andy Dominski, Director of the MOE Sector Compliance Branch, has been notified of these concerns and that representatives from the Professional Association of Vehicle Evaluators have met with MOE Compliance Branch staff to discuss this matter on two occasions. Despite these conversations, MOE staff members continue to stop these collector cars, and in cases of non-compliance, issue multiple Provincial Offense Notices to their owners.

This initiative appears to be directing considerable MOE enforcement resources to less than one half of one percent of vehicles registered in Ontario. These special interest vehicles are mainly driven as a hobby or to participate in car shows or ‘cruise nights’ and would be driven, on average, about 600 miles per year. This matter has also been raised by some of my PC colleagues.

I do support your petition and feel that the Ministry should review these vehicle emissions and component compliance standards with regard to collector cars and to assure that over-zealous enforcement does not unfairly burden specialty car hobbyists. Please feel free to keep my office apprised of any further developments.

Sincerely,

Lisa Thompson, MPP

Huron-Bruce

will · WALKERTON, ONT

Don't shoot the mesenger. They are doing their job the way the rules are written. Change the rules. Who cares about black smoke.

Sign the petition and contact YOUR MPP. Get him on YOUR side to vote in favour of changing the rules.

Gearhead · ELORA, ONT

What I'm saying is that the "black smoke retards" are 10x worse for polluting than we are. They should pick on them, and not US

will · WALKERTON, ONT

I agree, BUT we can't make them target one group and leave the other group alone - UNLESS there is no other group. We can be that other group by having the rules changed.
Sign the petition and contact your MPP to support the change when it comes up for vote.

CQNRQY · New Member

Hi Guys

This is a hot topic and very upsetting.....

I cant tell you how *%#ki*%# up setting....

Id like to know what it is they expect from us....

The way I understand it .....

They want our rides to be up to the emmission standards of the year of the vehicle or the year of the power plant put in the car/truck.

Does it matter when it was built? ( I heard something about vehicles built befor 1999 have different rules ). ie a 1929 car built in the 80s...vrs the same car built after1999...

Is this ( emissions) all that is required ? Or does the seatbelt requirement also change in accordance withe year of the engine. Where will it stop???

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

The MOE is only interested in visible tailpipe emissions (smoke) and that the needed emission control equipment is installed and functioning ... they are not interested in safety items such as seat belts. As it stands right now, if a vehicle was never equipped with seat belts, it is not required to have them.

There is a way around the emission control requirements ... install a pre-emission era engine block. If the car and the engine never had any emission controls, then you don't need any now.

Beachcat · WASAGA BEACH, ONT

In the mean time, while we're waiting for our fate, every show and cruise night should have a designated MOE spotter checking the area. If one is found, no leaves the lot untill he leaves the area. JMO.

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Just got back from the Woodward Dream Cruise. Great again this year. Saw so much stuff that would make the MTO, MOE and cops drool it was amazing. saw a BRAND NEW 1934 Ford Sedan Delivery with a new Coyote engine. I don't believe that was available in 1934. Beautiful rod.

I trust all the readers here have signed one.
There is still time to get more signatures. All the petitions are due in by August 31.
Get finished up and get them turned in. Mail them or drop them off, but don't let them sit.

the Kid.

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

There is no actual 'due date' to get the petitions in. I have asked several times at John O'Tooles office in Bowmanville when i was in to drop off signed petitions about a specific time getting these in and they tell me everytime no there isn't. Now i wouldn't wait til December or something like that, but do get them in by a reasonable time.

SKAR · PETERBOROUGH, ONT

Q: The owner of a 2005 Chevrolet vehicle installed a 2011 crate motor. (The 2011 crate motor was not designed or equipped with any emission components). What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:
meet the visible emission standards
meet the emission standards set for the original motor (2005).
have all emissions control equipment normally included with the replacement motor (2011), or its equivalent, attached and functioning. Since the crate motor did not come with any emission components, none are required.
meet or exceed the 2005 standards for that original motor if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test. Although emissions control equipment is not required, without it, the car would likely fail the Drive Clean test.

I remember reading somewhere before, crate motors were for off road use only as they did not have emissions equipment. This reads as though you can use one without any emissions equipment and would just have to be tested if an "officer" requests one.

Sacotu · COBOURG, ONT

was under the impression when arsehole froze the gov't all this stuff got tossed

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Sacotu wrote:
was under the impression when arsehole froze the gov't all this stuff got tossed

Thats what I was told, everything that hadn't come up for a vote was "HISTORY" if so maybe we can try again with a better worded & thought out petition!!!!

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

I was told it came up in the legislature the day after they returned from the summer break.

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

Heres the scoop, i stopped in at John O'Tooles office on my way home from work today because i have had a number of people that signed the petiton ask me what is going on with it after the stunt that Dalton pulled. The petition is STILL ALIVE! ! ! They encourage people to keep signing the petiton, the more the merrier. Just because what Dalton did does not mean anything bad happened to the petiton, no need to start rumours that it's dead because of what Dalton did. Keep getting signatures and keep sending them to John O'Tooles office please! There are still petitions on their front desk if you are in the area and want to sign it. There was never a cut off date for getting the petitons in, so keep them coming.

Sacotu · COBOURG, ONT

most excellent!!! great news!!!

will · WALKERTON, ONT

Thanks for the update. It is nice to know our efforts we not lost because of ---- well you know!

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Glad to hear that too. I was going by what the radio guys were saying that 'if it didn't make it to reading everything was dead"

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

A few of things before today's SVAO meeting with the M.O.E. guys in Claremont.
Did anyone contact MPP John O'Toole to invite or inquire as to whether he will be attending today's meeting?
Is someone bringing petitions for anyone who has NOT signed yet?
Did anyone compile a list of questions to ask? This would stop from having the same question asked several times, which will frustrate everyone.
Gentlemen, Decorum! We may find ourselves very frustrated today, but exercise restraint. Having everyone angry will serve no-one well and get us going the wrong direction. Patience Grasshopper.
Make sure your question is to the point of what you are asking. DO NOT RAMBLE! DO NOT assume they will understand what you are infuring or what you think you mean. Speak clearly and to the point. They will not ESP what you really meant. Do not use words you do not normally use. Make sure you ask a question that can be answered. I really doubt this will be completely resolved today, but it is a step in the right direction. AND as was previously stated, "a guy I know his brother's wife's neighbour's son" will only waste time and frustrate everyone. I sure hope some of the people with FIRST HAND experience are in attendance and speak up.
REMEMBER! Thank the guys from the M.O.E. after it is over. It was their Saturday too. They did not have to be there and they probably have families.Thank the SVAO guys for hosting this meeting, no matter how it goes. You only need 10 bucks to join and support SVAO.
See you this afternoon.
the Kid

symplesymonsezzz · Member

Hi fellow members. Regarding the petition and yes I did sign at A&W get together here in Windsor Ont. ? Do you have to be an owner of a classic car or rod or just a car lover in order to be counted on this petition. Would for example, my 70 year old neighbour who love's old cars but does't own one, can he sign and be counted.

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

Anyone can sign.

symplesymonsezzz · Member

Oldkoot, Thanks and I'll get on it right away.

v8deuce · OAKVILLE, ONT

Anything new? I think the line about newer engines are cleaner than the originals,in the petition, is a valid point to address the value that we, as hotroders, are doing to make our cars better for the inviroment while keeping the younger generation interested in our hobby. imo I would not like to see all the cars built from now on to have original engines,it sure will kill our hobby. Maybe we could compramize and make all hotrods compliant to the standard of 1980 and older emission standards?? I know my 97 cobra ford 4.6 engine with no cats egr beats those specs by a mile,that would put all of our cars on the same playing level instead of just the stockers that are allowed to have high emission limits.The other thing I have a huge problem with is that the state that wrote the book on emissions and who is still running the aircare program in BC, California does not have any problem with hotrodders and any engine in any pre emission car and that state has a larger percentage of 32 Fords than ontario has people evileye

Randy

Ok I'm done,time for a wobble pop wink

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Nothing is happening on this right now, as Mc Goofy shut down Queens Park till new Premier is announced!!! Where have you been ?????

v8deuce · OAKVILLE, ONT

WOW not in politics that is for sure. Can't stand the depressing news but I did hear Mcgoffy stepped down so does that mean everyone in government is on paid leave until the next puppet is in place?

Randy

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Just means that there is no sitting of the MPP's, nothing is getting passed or even discussed!! So I guess you could say the MPP's are on paid leave!!!!

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

We have to sit back and wait for the Liberal Party to get their act together again, if there is such a thing for them, sigh. I think January 25th is when they elect a new party leader, then it is up to that leader to decide if they are going to carry on at Queen's Park OR call an election to elect another party into power. I don't know of any exact date the petition will be introduced, alot rides on what the Lib's are gonna do first. It's a wait and see, don't plan on anything actually happening for awhile yet.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

I'm not planning on "ANYTHING" happening at all!!!!! Will likely go down the tubes & we will have to start all over!!! This time it should be "better" thought out, & written differently????