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need some help with emissions on my 85 pontiac trans am
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Hi guys so i just joined this forum, i did do some searching around on the forum to find the info i need but still have some questions about emissions equipment. I have a 1985 Pontiac Trans am, the previous owner swapped in a 350 into the car but did not put in any emission devices, the car is carburated and has no computer, i did learn from this site and other forums from Google searches that i have to have all the required emission devices that where on the original motor. My main concern is can this be accomplished without a computer i asked this because the original motor had a o2 sensor but i don't see how i can install a o2 sensor without a computer to use the information, is there some sort of work around, also the original motor came equipped with air injection, the car currently has headers on it with no provisions for air injection, what can i do about that, for the egr i guess i will have to buy a new manifold that has provisions for it, and use the ported vacuum line to get that to function if i understand correctly, the pcv valve is pretty straight forward not to complicated, also i did manage to find a canister that i can use so im not stressed about that, my two main concerns are the air pump and air injection and the o2 sensor issue having no computer. i don't know if i need any other emissions devices, if anyone could guide me in the right direction that would be great. I did everything i could called mechanics talked with emission testing facilties and all of them have no clue whats going on, emissions facilities tell me i don't need emissions devices, and mechanics seem to not know or want to bother with it.  Oh and because my car is a 1985 it never came with a 350 motor option so apparently that makes it a hot rod now, i don't know if that changes anything with the required emission devices i need, one mechanic said that i don't need anything other then a cat converter but idk who to trust anymore , i just wanna get this solved so i can enjoy my car. Thanks to everyone in advance for any help they can offer me.



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BELLEVILLE, ONT

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Welcome to the forum.
It's an 1985, you do not need to have it Etested to get plates or renew your sticker for it.
They don't check for emission devices on a safety. Get it safetied and drive it.


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my 76 vette had to have a cat to pass safety.



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ST MARYS, ONTARIO

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I don't know why it would have to have a cat for safety..I do them and I have never seen a cat required for safety...just a sound exhaust is required..and Mike is right..87 and down no E-test..88 and up will require a e-test for-ever..no 20 year relief for 88 and up..but if your our out doing things with the car that attracts the attention of the police or MOE they could require you to take it for an e-test and if they do that is where the test comes in under the hot -rod class.. if you go to the ministry site they have the best explanation of what will be required for test.. that is where you will need to have the equipment that came on the engine..Enjoy the car, drive responsibly and don't  be a dumb ass  and they probably will never bother you...



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I Googled 1985 Trans Am engine specs and according to www.transamworld.com the 1985 Firebird and Trans Am was available with these engines:

The 1985 engines

Type Displacement Horsepower Torque Induction
OHV I-4 151/2.5 88@4400 132@2800 TBI
OHV V-6 173/2.8 135@5100 165@3600 PFI
OHV V-8 305/5.0 165@4200 250@2400 4 bbl
OHV V-8 305/5.0 190@48080 240@3200 4 bbl
OHV V-8 305/5.0 205@4400 275@3200 TPI


Ok, here is the information I (personally) was given when I contacted the Environment and Climate Change Operations Division (basically the Ministry of the Environment for Ontario) a couple of years ago. They asked if the engine I was installing was ever offered in the year of car that I have. I installed a 350 in place of a 3.8 V6 and since a 350 was never available, the answer was "no". Since my car (a 1981 GM model that did not have a 350 as an available engine option, and in your case a 1985 Trans Am) was never offered with a 350 cubic inch engine, the MOE now viewed my car (and will yours too) as a Hot Rod. What this means is the emission control requirements are no longer dictated by the car but by the engine. So, since the engine block (which is what they use to determine engine year of manufacture) I was using was from 1969, the only emission controls I was required to have on my 1981 car were the ones the 1969 engine came with. As rediculous as this sounds, I am actually no longer required to have a catalytic, evap can, etc only whatever my 1969 engine came with when new. The MOE stated they would appreciate it if I not remove the cat, evap etc, but I am NOT legally required to have them on that car due to its Hot Rod status and the year of the engine I used. If you were to replace your 305 with any engine that WAS available in your car then the rules differ.

Now, this happened a couple of years ago and the rules may have changed since then so I highly recommend that you contact the MOE directly, with the specifics of your swap (meaning the size of the engine, that it was not available in a Firebird/Trans Am in 1985, and the year of the engine that is now in your car). Be warned though, they will not give you specifics as to what EXACTLY is required as far as individual emission control components, they will simply state that your car is now a "hot Rod" in their eyes, and you now need the emission controls that came on your particular engine, it will be up to you to determine what emission control components your engine came with (the MOE have that information on hand when they pull you over, check casting dates on your block, then determine what your engine should have as far as emission controls, but they won't give out that information as they feel it's your responsibility and probably just too time consuming as they probably fear that if they do it for one person, they'll spend the rest of the year doing it for everyone else).

One more thing, your issue really has nothing to do with DriveClean (which is why DriveClean can't answer your questions), it is the Environment and Climate Change Operations Division Sector Compliance Branch who enforce the laws of emission control issues (as stated below), therefore Climate Change Operations are the ones who can answer your questions. I suggest you disregard any info and opinions found on the internet (including my own as it may now be outdated and no longer accurate) and contact the correct branch of the gov't for the up-to-date information you seek.

Contact information and some other information has been copied and pasted (below) directly from an Ontario gov't website. Hope this helps.

ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE CHANGE
OPERATIONS DIVISION
SECTOR COMPLIANCE BRANCH [Telephone Directory]

416-314-4278 - Branch Assistant
Fax: 416-314-4464
Address:
Suite 1000
305 Milner Ave
Toronto ON M1B3V4

Description:
The Sector Compliance Branch is a highly mobile team dedicated to ensuring compliance with Ontario's environmental laws. Working in partnership with the ministry's district offices, the team selects specific sectors of concern--sectors that have high non-compliance rates and/or may have significant impacts on public health and the environment. The Sector Compliance Branch also includes the Vehicle Emissions Enforcement Unit. This unit of the team is dedicated to inspecting vehicles suspected of emitting excessive exhaust smoke, or of having emissions control equipment that has been tampered with or removed.







-- Edited by chips on Friday 2nd of October 2015 09:07:02 AM

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chips wrote:

So, since the engine block (which is what they use to determine engine year of manufacture) I was using was from 1969, the only emission controls I was required to have on my 1981 car were the ones the 1969 engine came with. As rediculous as this sounds, I am actually no longer required to have a catalytic, evap can, etc only whatever my 1969 engine came with when new. The MOE stated they would appreciate it if I not remove the cat, evap etc, but I am NOT legally required to have them on that car due to its Hot Rod status and the year of the engine I used. If you were to replace your 305 with any engine that WAS available in your car then the rules differ.



 You're kidding, right?

I laughed when you wrote " The MOE would appreciate it if I not remove the cat, evap etc ". 

Read the post below. I've highlighted the area in red.

 

Environmental Protection Act 
Loi sur la protection de l’environnement

ONTARIO REGULATION 361/98

MOTOR VEHICLES

 

Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods

4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.



-- Edited by Petebil on Friday 2nd of October 2015 09:44:24 AM

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Petebil wrote:
chips wrote:

So, since the engine block (which is what they use to determine engine year of manufacture) I was using was from 1969, the only emission controls I was required to have on my 1981 car were the ones the 1969 engine came with. As rediculous as this sounds, I am actually no longer required to have a catalytic, evap can, etc only whatever my 1969 engine came with when new. The MOE stated they would appreciate it if I not remove the cat, evap etc, but I am NOT legally required to have them on that car due to its Hot Rod status and the year of the engine I used. If you were to replace your 305 with any engine that WAS available in your car then the rules differ.



 You're kidding, right?

I laughed when you wrote " The MOE would appreciate it if I not remove the cat, evap etc ". 

 


  

I know, it does sound completely idiotic but it IS the truth.  I was shocked when the guy first told me that I was only required the emission controls from the '69 engine, so I said something like "let me get this right, you're saying even though the car itself came with a catalytic, evap blah blah blah, the only stuff I actually need to be legal is a PCV (and whatever else the '69 engine came with" and he said "YES".  So, still stunned as this just doesn't seem to make any sense at all, I again said something like "so you're telling me I CAN legally REMOVE the cat, evap can etc etc etc and be completely legal".  At this point his answer was "yes, we don't WANT you to remove that stuff as it is there to help the environment but, in your particular case (pre-emission engine, emission era chassis, Hot Rod status) you are NOT legally required to have that stuff on your car".

I'm glad I contacted them directly as this information was different than other stuff I had read on the internet at that time.

 



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Interesting


(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.


THIS (above) is exactly why I suggest contacting the MOE directly as rules can and do change over time. The above was not mentioned to me at the time I spoke with the MOE (lucky for me, all my contact with the MOE was in the form of emails, so I have documented proof to back up my claims as to what emission controls I've been told by the MOE that I am required to have on my car, should I be ticketed and feel the need to attend court).





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Ok, I just took a look at the emails I got from the MOE and here is the basics of what I was told.

As far as emission controls themselves, I am (in my specific situation of 1981 car and 1969 engine) only required to have the emission controls that came on the engine in 1969. That is the correct answer regarding required emission control components. I can NOT be ticketed for not having a catalytic (for example) since one was not installed on the 1969 engine.

Now, IF the MOE decides they need to send my car in for a sniff test, they require that I meet MUCH higher standards than that of a vehicle from 1969. I am unclear as to whether the car is required to meet 1981 or 1986 standards (which are most likely VERY similar).

So, from a true required-emission-controls-only point of view (which I believe was the original question), I am legal with only 1969 components on my 1981, but will fail a sniff test if sent in for one.

Basically this, if they can't ticket you for missing emission controls, they may try to get you with a sniff test, which a 1981 car will fail if only equipped with 1969 components.

What did I do? I installed cats (I went to a dual exhaust so I installed two of them, the original single exhaust and cat was removed), I left the evap can and some other stuff in place, along with everything from the 1969 engine.  I no longer have an EGR but I am still legal due to the age of the engine and I don't see an EGR valve affecting a short term sniff test enough to warrant installing one.  If the MOE does pull me over (they haven't yet), I expect they'll run the casting numbers on the block then verify that I have everything from 1969 in place. I expect they will also notice (because I will be sure to point out) that I have most of the 1981 stuff in place too, which I am hoping will make them decide that sending me in for a sniff would be a waste of their time as the chance of a conviction would hopefully be slim.

It's tricky, you can be legal as far as components go, but be pretty much guaranteed to fail as far as a sniff test goes.





-- Edited by chips on Friday 2nd of October 2015 11:12:17 AM

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ST MARYS, ONTARIO

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This conversation has been beaten to death every time it comes up..Yet as a licensed tech for 50 years and running my own shop I have yet to personally have one person that I know that has had a bad experience ..Not say'n it does not happen just say'n some times we make a mountain out of a mole hill..You do not require the e-test to be saftied and get your plates to be legal and driving, which is what you wanted to be in your original post..

Quote

my car is a 1985 it never came with a 350 motor option so apparently that makes it a hot rod now, i don't know if that changes anything with the required emission devices i need, one mechanic said that i don't need anything other then a cat converter but idk who to trust anymore , i just wanna get this solved so i can enjoy my car. Thanks to everyone in advance for any help they can offer me.

So I don't see why you can't safety and  plate the car and enjoy it, while you comply with the ministry regulations to get it where it needs to be..drive it like a white-man and do not be looking for trouble till you are in compliance with the regulations If you are looking for trouble , it will find you sooner than later..so now you know what you have to do..So git to it...



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Here is one more bit of info in one of the emails I got from the MOE that did not apply to my car and shouldn't apply to your car but it might be good information for someone else looking into this type of thing. Here is the exact quote taken from my email:

"I just wanted to clarify one last thing. The answer I gave you is specific to the scenario you gave me. If the original vehicle was an OBDII vehicle and you removed any of the emission equipment including the OBDII system when the engine was replaced you would not be able to pass a Drive Clean test as it uses the OBDII system for the test to meet the standards."

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

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Like Fatchuk said, this has been talked about before. The scenario you gave us contradicts all emission laws currently on the books and something is not right somewhere. If what you say is correct, then I could technically put a flathead engine from the 30's into a 1990 Mustang. It sounds to me that even though you got your information from "someone" at the MOE, this person does not understand the law as it is written. If I was you, I would keep a copy of that e-mail in my glovebox at all times.

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OBD 2 (light duty)vehicles are considered 1998 and up in Ontario for emission testing. The OP has a 1985, it doesn't require an emissions test.
Like Chuk said this topic seems to pop up every month and gets beaten to death.
It don't matter what the MOE said or you think the MOE said on the phone. Unless it's in writing it ain't worth spit.
Personally I would wonder why anyone would tell the MOE that you are planning on driving a vehicle that has been modified.
Are you looking for trouble?

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Petebil, I'll email you the MOE persons name. This person is definitely "in the know" at the MOE.

It's funny you mention printing out the answers and keeping it in the glove box as the person at the MOE suggested that, if it would be easier for me, I am more than welcome to phone him and speak directly to him. I then told him that I wanted to continue to correspond through email so I had an actual copy (legal proof if you will) of his answers to me that could be printed out and kept on my person or in my car. He then stated that if we were to talk on the phone, afterwards he would be more than happy to provide me with written proof of what we spoke about. I stuck with emails and have all of them printed out.

Lightspeed, if you read my response above to Petebil, you will see that I did indeed "get it in writing"  smile

As for this comment:  Personally I would wonder why anyone would tell the MOE that you are planning on driving a vehicle that has been modified.

Are you looking for trouble?  

 

I am definitely not looking for trouble.  Also, if done correctly (or should I say correctly equipped and within the law) there is nothing illegal about modifying a vehicle. I simply wanted to know what the laws are as they pertain to my particular engine swap so that I can either equip my car so it is legal or at the very least, understand what it is they might ticket me for if I decide not to equip my vehicle with whatever it needs to be legal.  I've either heard about or read (on the internet) about this topic too many times myself and there seems to be too many "correct" answers as to what is required, so I figured I'd go right to the source and find out the truth.  Since I now understand the laws (specifically in regards to my engine swap) I am legal (which my car now is), so I don't need to worry about being bothered by the MOE, and that makes me happy biggrin 

Here is an example of one reason why I contacted the MOE directly.  I spotted an ad on Kijiji where a person was looking for a smog pump to mount on the Old's V8 (I forget the engine size) that they had installed in a 1986 Cutlass Supreme.  In the ad he stated that he had been pulled over by the MOE and he got ticketed for not having a smog pump.  I contacted the guy (through Kijiji) and asked why he would need a smog pump on a 1986 Cutlass because 1986 Cutlass's never came with them.  He responded by saying that since the engine (I think it was a 1973 350) originally had one, he was required to still have one on the engine.  Since this claim didn't make any sense to me, based on other comments, suggestions, opinions, guaranteed truth's that I had read about on the internet and on this site too ("whichever is newer, the car or the engine" is an example of the misinformation out there), I decided to find out once and for all what the "real" truth was.  I got that "real truth" directly from the MOE itself, in printed form. smile

Yeah, I figured OBDII came out in the 90's so the '85 Trans Am doesn't have to deal with that issue, I just thought I would include that part of the answer from the MOE in case someone is wanting to modify an OBDII car, they would have an idea of what they are up against.

As a (hopefully biggrin) final comment from me regarding this issue, as I've mentioned before, I highly recommend anyone interested in what the legalities of their engine swap (or proposed engine swap) are as far as emission control components go, should contact the MOE directly as those are the people employed to enforce those specific laws, they are also the people capable of answering questions about those same laws.

 

This is really no different that a discussion about Pamela Anderson's boobs, I don't care how big a person thinks they are or how big a person has been told they are, the smartest thing to do is "go right to the source" and find out for yourself.  That's what I did, well, only regarding something a lot less fun.  biggrinwink

 



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This has been beat to death on here. There are over 200 submissions and they can all be found by going up to search and typing in 'emissions'. Here is a rather comprehensive submitted earlier this year.


Whether your car is a true hot rod or simply a modified vehicle, it has emissions requirements.

The full requirements are set out in the Environmental Protection Act, under the Motor Vehicle Regulation (Ontario Regulation 361/98).

The requirements depend on the car’s original model year:
• 1999 model year or older
• 2000 model year or newer

Definition of a hot rod

Under law, a hot rod is any car whose original motor has been replaced by a different type.

Type refers to the motor’s:
• manufacturer
• block size (displacement)
• use in the vehicle’s model and model year*

*Any motor that was available for that model and model year (for example, it may have come as an option) would not be a different type and, therefore, not qualify as a hot rod.

Original Car (1999 model year or older)

Motor replaced pre-1999

Requirements:
• Vehicle cannot operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any five-minute period
• For Drive Clean testing (if applicable), the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model year and must meet or exceed - the standards set for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles
• Catalytic converter and emission control equipment requirements do not apply to hot rods altered prior to January 1, 1999
• Without emissions control equipment functioning, the vehicle could fail the Drive Clean test

Motor replaced post January 1, 1999

Requirements:
• Vehicle cannot legally operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any 5-minute period
• For Drive Clean testing, the vehicle must meet or exceed what were the emissions standards of the original motor when all original emission control equipment was functioning.
• If there weren’t any standards established for the original motor, the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model - the standards listed for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles apply
• All emissions control equipment must be attached and functioning (equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor)

Motor replaced anytime

Requirements:
• Vehicle cannot legally operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any 5-minute period
• For Drive Clean testing, the vehicle model year is the model year as designated by the manufacturer
• Vehicle must meet or exceed what were the emissions standards for the original motor when all original emission control equipment was functioning
• All emissions control equipment must be attached and functioning (equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor)

Proof of motor replacement

The onus is on the hot rod owner to prove when the motor was replaced; otherwise, it will be deemed to have been done after January 1, 1999.

An original receipt for the installation/purchase of the replacement motor is an example of proof.


Part 2....

Understanding Emission Requirements for Hot Rods in
Regulation 361/98 under the Environmental Protection Act

You have a duty to maintain your vehicle’s emissions equipment according to the rules outlined here. Below are various situations that demonstrate these rules.

Q: In 1995 the owner of a 1935 Ford (no original emission components) installed a 1986 Chevy V8 motor (originally required multiple emission components). What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
the catalytic converter requirements do not apply
the emission control equipment requirements do not apply
meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model year vehicles if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test.

Q: In 2001, the owner of a 1935 Ford (no original emission components) installed a 1986 Chevy V8 motor (originally required multiple emission components). What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
meet the emission standards set for the original motor (1935). As there were none, the car must meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model year vehicles
if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test have all emissions control equipment normally included with the replacement motor (1986), or its equivalent, attached and functioning.

Q: In 1995 the owner of a 1935 Ford (no original emission components) installed a 1963 Chevy V8 motor (with no original emission components). What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
the catalytic converter requirements do not apply
the emission control equipment requirements do not apply
meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model year vehicles if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test.

Q: In 2001 the owner of a 1935 Ford (no original emission components) installed a 1963 Chevy V8 motor (with no original emission components). What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
the catalytic converter requirements do not apply as the replacement motor did not come originally equipped
the emission control equipment requirements do not apply as the replacement motor did not come originally equipped
meet the emission standards set for the original motor (1935). As there were none, the car must meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model-year vehicles if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test.

Q: In 1995, the owner of a 1986 GMC vehicle installed a 1970s motor. What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
the catalytic converter requirements do not apply
the emission control equipment requirements do not apply
meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model year vehicles if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test.

Q: In 2001, the owner of a 1986 GMC vehicle installed a 1970s motor. What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
meet the emission standards set for the original motor (1986).
have all emissions control equipment normally included with the replacement motor (1970), or its equivalent, attached and functioning.

Q: The owner of a 2005 Chevrolet vehicle installed a 2011 crate motor. (The 2011 crate motor was not designed or equipped with any emission components). What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
meet the emission standards set for the original motor (2005).
have all emissions control equipment normally included with the replacement motor (2011), or its equivalent, attached and functioning. Since the crate motor did not come with any emission components, none are required.
meet or exceed the 2005 standards for that original motor if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test. Although emissions control equipment is not required, without it, the car would likely fail the Drive Clean test.

Q: What are the emission requirements for a 1968 Chevy with the original engine?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
meet the emission standards for the model year of the vehicle (1968). As there were none, the car must meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model year vehicles if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test
have all the original emissions control equipment, or its equivalent, attached and functioning.
FYI, this vehicle is not considered to be a “hot rod’ because it has the original engine for the make and model year. This is true even if it has other modifications.

Q: What are the emission requirements for a 2004 Honda with the original engine that has been modified with performance parts, (i.e., turbocharger, cold air intake, etc.)?

A: This vehicle must:

meet the visible emission standards
meet the emission standards for the model year of the vehicle (2004)
have all the original emissions control equipment, or its equivalent, attached and functioning.
FYI, even though this vehicle has been modified, it is not considered to be a “hot rod”. That’s because the modification to the engine (turbocharger) did not change the engine, which was available to buyers of that make and model year of vehicle.
=============================================

If you have questions, email the ministry's Sector Compliance Branch at ReviewDirectorSCB@ontario.ca.

SOURCE - Drive Clean - Understanding Hot Rod Emissions Requirements (Scenarios) - Ministry of the Environment

NOTE: If you have any concerns that a roadside officer may pull you over and apply these rules incorrectly, why not print this information out and place it in your glovebox?

You're welcome.

All of the above clipped from the internet

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Hey everyone thanks for your replies but i think there is some confusion about what i need help on. maybe i was not to clear in my original post which i apologize for. I am not doing the emissions equipment for a safety i dont know where this came from, i have owned the car for about 4 years now, and i am aware that i need to have emissions equipment on the engine there are no work arounds on that, i contacted MOE, and the gentlemen on the phone told me i need to have all the emissions equipment that was on the original motor on the swapped motor, all i wanna know is how i can accomplish this with no computer and a motor that has no emissions eqiupment. i did research and some emissions equipment are pretty easy to install like the pcv, canister, egr etc.. i just want some clarification on some aspects of getting the equipment installed i will list my questions maybe it will make it easy.

1. To install a egr valve do i have to buy a intake manifold with a egr provision or is there some work around to make life easier in that regard

2. how can i do air injection into my headers , apparently the original motor had secondary air injection into the cat and manifold, but my motor has headers and no cats, do i have to throw out my headers and buy a manifold with air injection,

3.i heard there are cats that dont require a air pump to work properly if i installed this newier style cat conv can i get out of installing a air pump and all that air injection stuff.

4.the original motor had a o2 sensor how can i install a o2 and make it work if i have no computer ( and i think the computer controlled the distributor but i dont see how i can manage all this without a computer, do i even need to have a o2 sensor at this point)


thanks guys.

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I'll take a shot at this biggrin

 

1.  I believe that some Ford cars had a plate that sandwiched between the carb and the intake with an EGR valve hanging off the side.  One thing you might need to consider though, is engine to hood clearance as I doubt there is much on a Trans Am (if you are running an aftermarket cowl hood, this won't be an issue).

2.  I've seen pictures of headers that are used on dyno's and they had small bungs welded into each pipe, I think for temp sensors.  I don't see why a person couldn't weld bungs into each pipe to accept air injector lines.

3.  NO (just my opinion).  The MOE is looking for equipment violations when they pull you over on the side of the road.  They are only focused on whether or not you have ALL of the required equipment.  If they determine that your car/engine is required to have an air injector pump, you had better have one or you can expect a ticket.  The roadside inspection is strictly visual (at the moment at least), how clean you car is burning has nothing to do with it.

4.  I don't see how you can install a functioning O2 sensor on a carbed car (I'm not saying it can't be done, I just have no idea how it could be done).  However, since your car now has Hot Rod status (due to the size of the engine), it is my understanding that (I know, I went on and on about this already) you only need the emission controls that came with the replacement engine.  If the replacement engine didn't have an O2 sensor, then you (as I have been toldt) won't need one.  If the replacement engine was also fuel injected, then the only solution I have is to reinstall fuel injection or find an early engine block.  It seems you and I have received conflicting information from the MOE on what emission controls are required.  I will PM you the contact info for the person I spoke with regarding required emission controls.  I suggest you email this person, explain what car you have, that the new engine is of a size that was never offered in your car (therefore it is your understanding that this gives your car Hot Rod status), and the year of the engine.  If the answer is what I expect it will be (the answer that I myself got), print out the email and keep a copy in your car, install whatever emission controls the replacement engine came with, and drive confident that you are now legal.

Best of luck smile



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Here's a pic of a Ford EGR plate for carbs.     

 

egr carb plate.jpg



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theurge wrote:

Hey everyone thanks for your replies but i think there is some confusion about what i need help on. maybe i was not to clear in my original post which i apologize for. I am not doing the emissions equipment for a safety i dont know where this came from, i have owned the car for about 4 years now, and i am aware that i need to have emissions equipment on the engine there are no work arounds on that, i contacted MOE, and the gentlemen on the phone told me i need to have all the emissions equipment that was on the original motor on the swapped motor, all i wanna know is how i can accomplish this with no computer and a motor that has no emissions eqiupment. i did research and some emissions equipment are pretty easy to install like the pcv, canister, egr etc.. i just want some clarification on some aspects of getting the equipment installed i will list my questions maybe it will make it easy.

1. To install a egr valve do i have to buy a intake manifold with a egr provision or is there some work around to make life easier in that regard

2. how can i do air injection into my headers , apparently the original motor had secondary air injection into the cat and manifold, but my motor has headers and no cats, do i have to throw out my headers and buy a manifold with air injection,

3.i heard there are cats that dont require a air pump to work properly if i installed this newier style cat conv can i get out of installing a air pump and all that air injection stuff.

4.the original motor had a o2 sensor how can i install a o2 and make it work if i have no computer ( and i think the computer controlled the distributor but i dont see how i can manage all this without a computer, do i even need to have a o2 sensor at this point)


thanks guys.


 Sorry if I got off track a little bit, it happens around a bit.

Let's see if I can answer your questions a little better. According to the letter of the law emission equipment must be in place and functioning as intended. EG: catalytic converters must be working not hollowed out etc.

1. To install an EGR valve you need the proper manifold and correct sensors for it. You will need the correct EGR valve, for this you need to get the number off the original, there could be 8 different valves possible for one year, 1 engine.

2. Air injection, you can get headers with air  tubes (at least you used to be able to). You will need the proper smog pump and valves and sensors.

3. Catalytic converters don't need air injection to  work properly. Air pumps normally only work when engine is cold to speed up getting the converter to "light up". Again according to the letter of the law , if it had a smog pump it again must has a fully functioning smog pump.

4. An O2 sensor will not work with out a computer in your case. An O2 sensor provides feed back to the ECU to adjust rich or lean. If the car had an O2 sensor it was either Fuel injection or electronic feed back carburetor. Thus considered a required emission device. You can get aftermarket O2 sensor to do tuning with, (normally called wideband) but they are not considered a replacement for a properly functioning emission device.

Bottom line is it will be about impossible to do what you want to do. Just because you stick on your EGR valve somewhere, put a charcoal can under the hood etc does not mean it will be functioning as designed by the manufacturer. Thus violating the letter of the law.

If your that worried about it, sell it and buy a stock 1985 Trans Am. You will be money ahead with way less grief.

If you ever get pulled over your penalty will depend on how knowledgeable and nice the officer is.

Like I said in my first post, drive and enjoy it.

 

 



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Bottom line is it will be about impossible to do what you want to do. Just because you stick on your EGR valve somewhere, put a charcoal can under the hood etc does not mean it will be functioning as designed by the manufacturer. Thus violating the letter of the law.

If your that worried about it, sell it and buy a stock 1985 Trans Am. You will be money ahead with way less grief.

If you ever get pulled over your penalty will depend on how knowledgeable and nice the officer is.

Like I said in my first post, drive and enjoy it.

 

 


 Gosh that's really depressing news, lol i just spent loads of cash getting the car painted, new weatherstripping, full custom interior, etc... i really don't want to have to sell the car just because of some b.s. emission stuff, im just gonna go on a mini rant, like WTF is up with environment Canada, how many ppl drive classic cars for god sakes, like not event 1% of the population, and how big is the Canadian population, what kind of disastrous environmental damage can us hot rodders do. I remember when japan had a nuclear leak into the ocean, now that was very disastrous, but the world survived, i don't see how our cars with no emission devices is gonna bring the end of the world any sooner, DAMN THEM ALL. HOLY CRAP. THis is so ridiculous, :( . I know what im gonna do, i just gonna get that stupid egr on the car, get the pcv, cat, and canister in place, if i get pulled over and ticketed so be it, they can give me the damn ticket, 



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theurge wrote:

Gosh that's really depressing news, lol i just spent loads of cash getting the car painted, new weatherstripping, full custom interior, etc... i really don't want to have to sell the car just because of some b.s. emission stuff, im just gonna go on a mini rant, like WTF is up with environment Canada, how many ppl drive classic cars for god sakes, like not event 1% of the population, and how big is the Canadian population, what kind of disastrous environmental damage can us hot rodders do. I remember when japan had a nuclear leak into the ocean, now that was very disastrous, but the world survived, i don't see how our cars with no emission devices is gonna bring the end of the world any sooner, DAMN THEM ALL. HOLY CRAP. THis is so ridiculous, :( . I know what im gonna do, i just gonna get that stupid egr on the car, get the pcv, cat, and canister in place, if i get pulled over and ticketed so be it, they can give me the damn ticket, 


 

Before you get too depressed, why not exhaust ALL potential avenues first.  

You MAY NOT NEED AN O2 SENSOR TO BE LEGALblankstare.  According to the chart below, carbed 305 WERE available in 1985 Firebirds (of which the Trans Am is a model of).  Do you know for a fact that it is illegal to change a 1985 Trans Am from being fuel injected to being carbureted, if BOTH WERE AVAILABLE IN 1985?evileye

Do you know what year your engine block is?confuse

Do you know for a FACT exactly which emission controls the MOE of Ontario requires you to have on your car?confuse

You seem to be basing your opinion of what is needed off of other people's opinions.  The only people who are guaranteed to have the answers you seek are employees of the MOE (I gave you the contact info to an MOE supervisor), they are also the people you need to satisfy when you open your hood during a roadside inspection, wouldn't it be wise to speak with them before you sell the car, drive it as-is, or add emission stuff you may not even need?confuse

 

Wishing you the best as I excuse myself from this conversation biggrin

 

 

 

 

 

 The 1985 engines


Type Displacement Horsepower Torque Induction
OHV I-4 151/2.5 88@4400 132@2800 TBI
OHV V-6 173/2.8 135@5100 165@3600 PFI
OHV V-8 305/5.0 165@4200 250@2400 4 bbl
OHV V-8 305/5.0 190@48080 240@3200 4 bbl
OHV V-8 305/5.0 205@4400 275@3200 TPI

 

 



-- Edited by chips on Saturday 3rd of October 2015 02:56:19 PM

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NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

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I agree with chips. Contact the MOE and tell them exactly what you have and ask what you need to be legal and avoid problems and tickets on the road. You will have a starting point then and you can decide which way to go. If you get a reply with advice to do a minimal amount to be roadworthy copy it and keep it in the car,,, just in case.

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ALLAN PARK, ONT

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OR..........a 305 looks the same as a 350 externally........Who is going to know its not a 305? A cop isnt going to tear it down on the side of the road. If asked, its a 305 as far as you know......end of story
Get in and drive it

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MOE roadside inspectors have all the info on computers & can punch in block or casting #'s right there & instantly know & that's the start of your troubles, unless # machined off [ chevy] when blk. gets decked !!! then it's just the casting # on back of the block which gives you some 'lee way] With this 'horse crap" your guilty until you can prove them wrong in court, & so far I've heard a lot of charges have been "tossed" by judge in the Durham Region Courts so far, but still a PITA having to go to court over this cash grab B/S

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I have contacted the MOE, I contacted them about a month ago to get this all sorted out. The guy on the phone told me i needed to have all the emission devices that where on the original motor equipped onto the replacement motor, unless i had proof it was done before 1999,

I asked him how would i be able to install and have emission equipment functioning when i do not have a ecm to control the devices, he told me that i did not necessarily need a ecm and i could use vacuum controlled equipment to get things to function

He further went on to explain that i need quite a few things, he mentioned i would need, egr, pcv, canister, air pump / air injection, cat converter, and then told me i would have to find out what was equipped on the original motor from the factory and install it onto the replacement motor,

I again asked him how would i be able to find all the devices when the car is so old , there wont be any replacement parts available most likely, he told me it didn't have to be exactly the same thing, he said for example you need a egr, you don't have to use the exact egr that was equipped on your original motor, he told me i would have to find one that would function as it should for the replacement motor, he said the same goes for the remaining parts,

when i heard this i said to myself that is pretty fair and straight forward, so then i started my research to track down what i needed and how i could go about installing everything,

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chips wrote:

Here's a pic of a Ford EGR plate for carbs.     

 

egr carb plate.jpg


 wow i love this idea, i wish i had the hood clearance for it, even at this point in time my air cap is grinding against the bottom of the hood, i have no more height to play with, damn i really wish i had that extra 1 inch or so to get this on there!



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WOODLAWN, ONT

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I tried doing an ebay search but could not find the egr plate, anyone have a link to it as it may be good on my Buick V6 aftermarket intake. Thanks.



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i have a g.m. aluminum small block chev 4v intake with egr for 1980 - 85. if you're interested i can post a pic.



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Why throw good money to bad, buy seeking out and bolting on obsolete parts that will just suck gas and horsepower. If your that worried about it inject the thing and put on a couple of high flow cats. If you search around the Holley Commander kits can be had at a decent price and will make the car drivable. There is no possibility on  earth of complying to a law that is open to interpretation and if you are one of very few who ever gets pulled over they will find something to wright you up for because they know there are no straight answers.    Why worry about drowning . When you were born to hang........





-- Edited by slim on Monday 5th of October 2015 08:52:50 AM

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slim wrote:

Why throw good money to bad, buy seeking out and bolting on obsolete parts that will just suck gas and horsepower. If your that worried about it inject the thing and put on a couple of high flow cats. If you search around the Holley Commander kits can be had at a decent price and will make the car drivable. There is no possibility on  earth of complying to a law that is open to interpretation and if you are one of very few who ever gets pulled over they will find something to wright you up for because they know there are no straight answers.    Why worry about drowning . When you were born to hang........





-- Edited by slim on Monday 5th of October 2015 08:52:50 AM


 I love your thinking, i was planning on getting the first intake system, it looks just like a tpi but way bigger can support about 500 hp or more if i remember correctly, you can buy it with a fast efi system, the only reason i didnt do it so far is because i dont know if that fast efi system can work with emissions or work the emission equipment. 

 

and your right about this law from what i understand it all boils down to how much the officer puling you over knows and how he decides to interpret the law!

 

here is a link for the first injection website https://www.firstfuelinjection.com/services.html



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DUNDAS, ONT

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I would think a properly tuned efi system with a couple cats at running temperature would pass any tail pipe test set out for an 85. You could stick a fume canister under the hood for looks . i would stay away from the Egr unless its specific to the system as Mike pointed out earlier . Lets face it even if you  are called on it you show the recites to the judge and tell him these are the upgrade you have done since you have owned the car to improve emissions. Its not the original engine and no one can give you the correct part numbers to make anything missing function properly. and as stated in the 4th post don't be a dick and there is a 99% chance it will never be a issue. By the way I am one of the few who have been checked buy the ministry and after a long slow walk around the truck the inspector got real close to my window and said " I have no f##king Idea why they pulled you in here " Its all a roll of the dice and the flavour of the day and I think they know that . Other then a couple areas east of Toronto Its a Non Issue and even there we are not talking huge numbers. They have got more done by just saying they are going to act , then they would of by getting out and doing something. They should have Chicken Little as a mascot .



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What is the new motor out of?

I would probably just stick on all the 1985 emissions crap on the newer motor and say its a 305.

And there might have beeny a 350 motor option in 1985 F-bodies. If it was available it would be extremely rare but there should be plenty of factory documentation to prove it. They were the Players Challenge cars and I believe they had the TPI corvette motor. The only issue is that I do not know if they were only in Camaro's or were also in Firebirds. I know I have seen several camaros.


The other issue is that they were the TPI motor and the original poster said he was running a carburator.

 

EDIT - jut looked and the Players cars started in 86' and they had the L69 305.






-- Edited by RacerRick on Tuesday 6th of October 2015 10:08:05 AM

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i have no clue where the motor came out of, and i cant find any evidence of anything in all the paper work i have, just out of curiosity would it make a difference if the motor waste a crate engine? cuz those things dont come with any emission devices?

also i was re reading the law and i still dont understand something:

Motor replaced post January 1, 1999

Requirements:

Vehicle cannot legally operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any 5-minute period
For Drive Clean testing, the vehicle must meet or exceed what were the emissions standards of the original motor when all original emission control equipment was functioning.
If there weren’t any standards established for the original motor, the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model - the standards listed for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles apply
All emissions control equipment must be attached and functioning (equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor)

in the red it says equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor, so if my replacement motor didn't come with any emission devices doesn't that kinda say im okay with driving it around like that with no emission devices

so if they pull me they can only ask me to take a e test, and if i fail i would have to some how get it to meet the original motor standards,

am i getting this right? or am i just reading it the way i want to read it LOL!



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fatchuk wrote:

This conversation has been beaten to death every time it comes up..Yet as a licensed tech for 50 years and running my own shop I have yet to personally have one person that I know that has had a bad experience ..Not say'n it does not happen just say'n some times we make a mountain out of a mole hill..You do not require the e-test to be saftied and get your plates to be legal and driving, which is what you wanted to be in your original post..

Quote

my car is a 1985 it never came with a 350 motor option so apparently that makes it a hot rod now, i don't know if that changes anything with the required emission devices i need, one mechanic said that i don't need anything other then a cat converter but idk who to trust anymore , i just wanna get this solved so i can enjoy my car. Thanks to everyone in advance for any help they can offer me.

So I don't see why you can't safety and  plate the car and enjoy it, while you comply with the ministry regulations to get it where it needs to be..drive it like a white-man and do not be looking for trouble till you are in compliance with the regulations If you are looking for trouble , it will find you sooner than later..so now you know what you have to do..So git to it...


         I agree     Listen to this advice     



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Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifolds 3701 (type that in on summit, it should come up)

This intake has provisions for an EGR system. The egr valve bolts to the intake manifold, and as far as I know, exhaust is routed to the valve through the head. If your head doesnt have the port, then the system is useless, but may pass a visual test?

Charcoal canister is pretty simple as far as I know. This site has the diagrams. 3 vaccum lines I think. The fuel tank on that Camaro probably has provisions for the line already, and should be just a matter of hooking two or three more up to the carb. http://www.fixya.com/cars/t10504806-engine_vacuum_diagram.

This is a picture of my charcoal canister from a 1987 Camaro. ITs a V6 so the V8 one may be diffferent... I think a non computer one may be simpler, but I havent seen one myself, so im not sure. I think there is wiring though and a solenoid in this one, so like I said, a vaccum operated one like the diagram I posted should be simpler.


Im in a similar boat, and have emailed the MOE about this same kind of issue (no reply yet). I have a 74 engine to put in a 68. If yours is a hotrod, from what I can best understand from the confusing and cloudy MTO articles, then you probably only require what your replacement year of motor had, since it was installed POST 1999. So, if yours is a 70's block and also some of the carburated 80's blocks, then you shouldnt need O2 sensors because there is no O2 sensors on carbed cars. If your replacement motor didnt have air injection, then that probably solves that too. if it does, you probably could take the time to drill holes in the tubes and weld in the bungs but seems like a lot of work.... (This last paragraph is thoughts and may not be fact. Verify all of it before taking my word for it. Should make sense though...)

If you dont need air injection, magnaflow makes high flow cats. Summit and other sites have them for fairly cheap.

Earlier V8s in the smog era also has a heat riser thing that comes off the manifold, and some sort of device in the stock intake snorkel thing from what I have been reading.

All just some info of what I have been researching. I think that your best bet if you havent already, is try to find out the engine code and partial vin if it is still there. Then you can find out what emissions controls you should have to be 100% legal. However, like everyone is saying, Im sure that no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, IF they pull you over (which also has been stated to be quite minimal, jkust like the above post states) they WILL probably find something to fine you for anyways. Im not trying to repost others stuff or convince you to run or not run the emissions. Thats up to you. Like I stated earlier, this is just what I have been researching for myself, and if any of it is helpful, then so be it. If its ignored, so be it. Just my 2 cents. If I get an email back from the ministry I will be glad to PM you the results and their answer. 

Another last mention, if you dont konw about it, Thirdgen.org is a great site with a lot of good information about third gen f body camaros and firebirds. im sure you can find diagrams of stock emission setups and almost any other info you should need on there. 



-- Edited by 66-67-88Chevy on Wednesday 7th of October 2015 08:32:04 PM

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yeah from what im understanding its a good idea to do what you can, just incase you should get pulled over, i also have a v6 camaro, and thats when i learned about the emission requirements, i was curising around with my stock v6 camaro when i just see red and blue lights im like WTF i wasn't speeding, then i find out they wanna check my car for emission devices, my god they checked everything, they pulled out hoses to see if they where clogged up with something, they went under the car, and finally said okay your good to go, so i asked the guy would a 85 trans am with a swapped engine need any emissions, and the officer said what ever came with the motor needs to be on the new motor, i was like DAMN IAM SCREWED lol,

but w.e. it is what it is, i am also a member of the thirdgen.org site, really great sites lots of crazy builds and info on there! if it wasnt for thirdgen.org i would have been stuck lots of times when trying to solve problems with my camaro.

Your right about the heat riser it was supposed to heat up the fuel i believe so it would get thinner or something, sounds really useless to me, and i doubt any would no it wasnt there, but you never know, these cars had alot of emission devices on them from what reasearch i have done, im gonna stick to the basics and take some advice from the thread,

what i plan on doing
Get high flow cats
install the canister
do the pcv

im gonna ignore the egr as suggested plus saves me from having to buy a new manifold
also the air pump and stuff gonna skip that stuff because i really dont feel like adding tubes to my headers

when and if i get pulled over ill just do what slim suggested just install the required missing parts and show it to the JP and hope they rip the ticket for me,



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a friend of mine got nailed in one of the port perry blitzes. he was required to comply with all the emissions devices on his 83 cutlass or pull the plates and pay a fine for each violation. he complied and his fine was reduced to 320 bucks. they are quite nasty in east central ontario.



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I got stopped in one of the Port Perry blitzes, but was lucky.

I was in my 87' Cutlass which is dead stock except for rims. They threatened to give me a ticket for the car not having an air injection pump. Considering the car never came from the factory with a air injection pump when equipped with my engine combo, I thought that was a little much. The only reason I didn't get a ticket was because I showed officer the the factory owners manual that has the belt routing in it, and it shows there was never an air injection pump on my car. Otherwise it was a $320 ticket.

I would go and get all the emissions stuff for your car if you can, including the EGR and air pump if it had it.



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TORONTO, ONT

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I got stopped in one of the Port Perry blitzes, but was lucky.

I was in my 87' Cutlass which is dead stock except for rims. They threatened to give me a ticket for the car not having an air injection pump. Considering the car never came from the factory with a air injection pump when equipped with my engine combo, I thought that was a little much. The only reason I didn't get a ticket was because I showed officer the the factory owners manual that has the belt routing in it, and it shows there was never an air injection pump on my car. Otherwise it was a $320 ticket.

I would go and get all the emissions stuff for your car if you can, including the EGR and air pump if it had it. Or get it registered as hot rod class and you have to meet a much different set of emissions requirements that are generally much easier and I think there is no visual inspection.



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"All emissions control equipment must be attached and functioning (equipment refers to WHAT CAME WITH THE REPLACMENT MOTOR or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor)".


 


Once again, the above is EXACTLY how it was explained to me by a supervisor of the MOE. The required emission controls are the ones the REPLACEMENT engine had on them, NOT what the car had on it. If the replacement engine in your 1985 Trans Am was originally installed in a 1969 Camaro, you only need the emission controls on your 1985 Trans Am that the 1969 engine was equipped with (meaning NO cat, NO egr, NO evap, NO o2 sensor etc etc). The emission control components your 1985 came with are no longer needed.  You are NOT required to combine the emission control from the 1969 AND the 1985 engines!!!

You need to determine what year your replacement engine block is before you can go any further. There should be number stamped on your block that will allow you to determine what year car/truck it came in. If they have been removed due to "decking" during a rebuild, there should also be casting numbers that will give some info.

I should probably state again that this is how it was explained to me, by a supervisor at the MOE, specifically about MY CAR where I installed an early V8(that had minimal emission controls) of a size that was never offered in my year of 1980's chassis, thereby giving my car Hot Rod status. 

 

I am NOT asking you to believe me or take my word for it as I understand that what I state can easily be viewed as "just another internet posters opinion" ......... that is precisely why I gave you the contact info for the MOE supervisor I spoke with and asked that you determine the year of your engine block before contacting him, as I know that is a very important piece of the puzzle the MOE requires. 

 
















-- Edited by chips on Thursday 8th of October 2015 12:40:32 PM

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All emissions control equipment must be attached and functioning (equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor)

in the red it says equipment refers to what came with the replacement motor or be equivalent to what would have come with that motor, so if my replacement motor didn't come with any emission devices doesn't that kinda say im okay with driving it around like that with no emission devices

so if they pull me they can only ask me to take a e test, and if i fail i would have to some how get it to meet the original motor standards,

am i getting this right? or am i just reading it the way i want to read it LOL!




No you can NOT (legally) drive around with "no emission devices" as you are required to have the emission controls that came with the replacement engine. If the engine is from a 1969, you need almost nothing, if the replacement engine is from a 1992 (whatever model), you need the controls from the 1992. Which is (for the last time) WHY YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT YEAR OF CAR/TRUCK YOUR ENGINE WAS REMOVED FROM.

I shall now commence radio silence as I can't say it any clearer than I already have.






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ONTARIO

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Chips,you are missing one big piece of the puzzle. I'll post again what I highlighted in red in my previous post;

"shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor "

That sentence right there states that you cannot put an older engine in a newer car. period.
The 69 engine is nowhere near as stringent as the 85 engine. There's no way in hell that they (MOE) would let people stuff old engines in new cars.



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Petebil wrote:

Chips,you are missing one big piece of the puzzle. I'll post again what I highlighted in red in my previous post;

"shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor "

That sentence right there states that you cannot put an older engine in a newer car. period.
The 69 engine is nowhere near as stringent as the 85 engine. There's no way in hell that they (MOE) would let people stuff old engines in new cars.


 

 

All I can say is that is not what I was told.  I can't help but wonder if the statement "shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor" only applies to cars that are NOT deemed to be Hot Rods.

The supervisor at the MOE specifically asked me what year my car was, what year my replacement engine was, asked if the engine cubic inch of the replacement engine was offered in my year of chassis (since my car never came with a 350, he stated that my car is now viewed as a Hot Rod), then he proceeded to explain to me that I only need the emission controls from the earlier engine.  I asked him to clarify as it sounds like he is saying that technically I don't need any of the emission controls that were on my 1980's car.  He stated that I am correct, with the car being a Hot Rod, I only really need the emission controls from the early engine.  I asked him once again something like "so you're telling me it is actually LEGAL for me to remove the catalytic (as an example).  Once again, he answered "Yes that is correct.  We certainly don't recommend or ask that you remove those items, and you will have trouble meeting 1980 standards if you are directed to take a sniff test if they have been removed but, speaking only about your specific scenario, you CAN legally remove any emission control devices from your car that your replacement engine never had on it".  If my car had cats, egr, pcv, charcoal can, etc etc, and the replacement engine only had a pcv, I only need a pcv to be legal as far as required equipment goes.

Funny thing is, I specifically brought to the MOE supervisors attention a letter I had found on the internet from a Director of the MOE, where the Director stated something that conflicted with what I was now being told.  The Supervisor then stated that the director had made a 'blanket statement' of sorts and, in my specific scenario the Directors 'blanket statement' was actually incorrect.  How strange is that?  That's not all, during my questioning of the MOE, I brought up a couple of the examples the MOE had posted on the MOE website, and the Supervisor pointed out that there was actually a mistake in one of the examples too.  Due to the fact that the Supervisor I dealt with was more than happy to take the time and answer all my questions while also pointing out that some info coming from the MOE itself was false, I felt it best if the original poster took the time to contact the same Supervisor I have spoken with, and once everything is understood, that he should then request a written statement regarding what his specific car is required to have, as far as emission controls go.  I doubt an MOE officer, hired to do roadside inspections, is going to argue what a car does or does not need if the owner of the vehicle can produce documentation that came from the MOE itself.

 

 

 

 

 



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BUCKHORN, ONT

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hmmm - seems to be 180 degrees away from what is actually happening on the street and in the courts.



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BRANT COUNTY, ONT

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Ben and I want to cruise the cars we build with out having to worry about fines etc. so we took Chips advice and emailed the MOE with Bens specific car. Good advice.....Thanks.

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plus the kids 87 Camaro and 68 SS Camaro



TORONTO, ONT

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I was told by the MOE inspector that you need to meet the whatever emissions requirements are ore stringent - the requirements for the model year of your car, or for the the model year of the engine when swapping motors.

How it was explained to me was that if your 1985 car had a engine swap with a 1969 engine, you still needed to have the 1985 emissions. If you had a 1969 car and dropped in a 1985 engine, you still needed to have the 1985 emissions equipment!



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RacerRick wrote:

I was told by the MOE inspector that you need to meet the whatever emissions requirements are ore stringent - the requirements for the model year of your car, or for the the model year of the engine when swapping motors.

How it was explained to me was that if your 1985 car had a engine swap with a 1969 engine, you still needed to have the 1985 emissions. If you had a 1969 car and dropped in a 1985 engine, you still needed to have the 1985 emissions equipment!


 

 

Regarding the situation above, there is no way the MOE inspector could have given you the correct answer for your situation if the specifics of the swap were not presented by you or asked for by him.  

Installing a 1969 350 in a 1985 pickup, that was originally equipped with a 350, is not the same as installing a 1969 350 in a 1985 chassis in which a 350 cubic inch engine was never offered.  One simply has a replacement engine while the other is now viewed by the MOE as a Hot Rod.  The emission control requirements for the two are not the same.  

 

Edit:  I am not saying the MOE didn't give you the answer he gave, I am saying that the inspector should have asked for more information before answering your question as the answer he gave may not apply to the actual facts of your swap.  Before he can correctly answer your question, he needs to determine whether or not the car now qualifies for Hot Rod status.



-- Edited by chips on Tuesday 13th of October 2015 02:46:54 PM

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BLACKSTOCK, ONT

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The way I read the rules is whatever is newer, either engine or car is what applies to the MOE roadside inspection!! So even if you put an older ,say 69 in this 85 Trans Am he still has to equip. it with all the 85 stuff that came with car, I don't think this 85 can be classed as a "HOT ROD" maybe wrong?? Going the other way unless done before Jan. 99 & documented, your "old" car must have whatever was on the doner engine ie 96 LS chevy must have all that came with whatever car or truck that it came out of!!!! Then we have the crate engine which is exempt for some unknown reason??? but you'd better have a bill of sale from dealer for said engine!!!!! Now that being said, I think I'll move to West Virginia, as ANYTHING goes there, If it will fit, RUN IT!!!!! Nitrous, no problem, All out drag slicks on back OK go for it!!! Emission's, What's that?? But they do have annual inspection before you can get your sticker & runs about $18 for quick visual inspection, no wheels pulled!!!!!

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dualquadpete wrote:

The way I read the rules is whatever is newer, either engine or car is what applies to the MOE roadside inspection!! So even if you put an older ,say 69 in this 85 Trans Am he still has to equip. it with all the 85 stuff that came with car, I don't think this 85 can be classed as a "HOT ROD" maybe wrong??


 

If a buyer was never able to buy a 1985 Trans Am with a 350 (305 was the largest), installing a 350 in place of the 305 actually does give the Trans Am "Hot Rod" status (speaking only as the MOE see's it).

 

Believe me though, I do NOT expect or even want people to take my word for it, the MOE is responsible for the enforcement of the laws pertaining to required emission control components, THEY are the ones people need to contact for the correct information regarding the specifics of their particular swap/engine replacement.  smilesmile 

 

Edit:  When I first contacted the MOE, it was my understanding that "whichever is newer" is correct.  In my specific scenario though, I was actually wrong and "whichever is newer" does not apply.  






-- Edited by chips on Tuesday 13th of October 2015 03:04:44 PM

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BRANT COUNTY, ONT

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I just contacted the MOE with the number that was posted above and got my answer and email proof to print off and keep in the car. Easy. That number is a direct line. Receptionist put me through immediately. 10 minutes is all it took. Also have an email with proof. I talked to Rick Lalonde I think. Last name is definitely correct.

Found out that I can put in my 74 motor into the ,68 Camaro and run only the 1968 emissions. Like everyone's saying,take 10 minutes, call and get proof.

Here's Chips original post with the number. Still works


ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE CHANGE
OPERATIONS DIVISION
SECTOR COMPLIANCE BRANCH [Telephone Directory]

416-314-4278 - Branch Assistant
Fax: 416-314-4464
Address: 
Suite 1000
305 Milner Ave
Toronto ON M1B3V4



-- Edited by 66-67-88Chevy on Tuesday 13th of October 2015 07:40:51 PM



-- Edited by 66-67-88Chevy on Sunday 18th of October 2015 11:18:38 AM

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Ben Davis - 1987 Camaro

http://imgur.com/a/L4LjK#0

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