Why don’t vehicles that were built in 1987 or earlier require a Drive Clean test?

hemi43 · ONTARIO

RE: emmissions on older cars

58Chev · ETOBICOKE, ONT

Some of the document is here.

http://www.ontario.ca/driving-and-roads/do-hot-rods-need-drive-clean-test

saefifty · PORT PERRY, ONT

I live right in the middle of a hot spot for Ministry Of The Environment Enforcement.My shop is here as well..I've done battle with them for at least 5 years now.And won every time except once over a missing cat and the judge reduced that to $50 and I made sure with disclosure etc. it cost them many hundreds at least....The first thing you need to know is most of the time the stop is illegal..Second you don't have to open the hood just because they ask you to, no more than you would have to open your trunk or empty your pockets out for them.Third Refusing to answer questions about what motor you have is your right...The more you talk the more likely you are the giving them probable cause and looking farther.These guys just want your money.They don't have the power of arrest (no gun) and therefore can't detain you.Just leave.They are not police.Unless there is clouds of blue smoke pouring out of your car these people have no right to bother you.They are not experts and usually not qualified and that shows in court..Espesially about hot rods..Every time you entertain them and allow them to write tickets and rape revenue it justifies to their superiors what they are doing.The clean air act was not ment to harass hot rod or antique cars ..I should do a video on how to deal with them in a stop......

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

saefifty wrote:
..I should do a video on how to deal with them in a stop......

Bring it on, please.

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
I can't even remember when I got that document, or where it came from. Your statement above is correct, but you didn't mention what year vehicle you were referring to.

1953 Studebaker, so that's not a problem.

I don't know of any reason you can't grind off block numbers, they are not part of vehicle VIN numbers or any ID of any Gov paperwork anywhere.

Often done when smoothing block prior to painting, talking about cast SBC block numbers, or stamping at front of block.

Anyone know differently?

-- Edited by johnod on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 11:11:30 AM

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

This is the guy you want to contact.

Rick Lalonde
Supervisor
Ministry of the Environment
Sector Compliance Branch
305 Milner Avenue, Suite 1000,
Scarborough, Ontario M1B 3V4
REVIEWDIRECTORSCB@ontario.ca

What year engine is in the '53 Stude?

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

DB Cooper wrote:
This is the guy you want to contact.

Rick Lalonde
Supervisor
Ministry of the Environment
Sector Compliance Branch
305 Milner Avenue, Suite 1000,
Scarborough, Ontario M1B 3V4
REVIEWDIRECTORSCB@ontario.ca

What year engine is in the '53 Stude?

86 I believe, but installed prior to 99.

I've never found talking to Gov official makes things any clearer, as they usually have no idea themselves, and rules are written so as to be as ambiguous as possible, intentionally of course.

-- Edited by johnod on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 11:15:29 AM

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

I wouldn't grind the numbers off.

If the MOE ever does an inspection and isn't able to determine your blocks age due to missing casting numbers, I can't see that ending well. In the end it will be up to you to prove the blocks age if they demand it. 1986 is when GM started the one-piece rear seal, so they can (if they dig deep enough) determine how new the block really is. Grinding the numbers off would most likely give them reason to "dig deep".

I understand that the "010" gm block was cast from (something like) 1969-1979. I have been told that if the MOE can't determine the actual date of (for example) an "010" block, they will go with the latest date it could have been. So, if you have a true 1969 "010" block, but can't prove it was actually cast in 1969, they will assume it is a 1979 for emission purposes.

You have several options.
Prove the engine was installed before 1999.
Install the emissions for 1986.
Install an early engine block from before the emissions era.
Drive it as is and hope they never check it.

If you can prove the engine was installed before 1999, all you need to do is contact Rick Lalonde and get it in writing that engines installed before 1999 don't require emission controls for the year of the block. If you can't prove the engine was installed before 1999, trust me, they aren't going to take your word for it.

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

Here it is, directly from the MOE website.

Original Car (1999 model year or older)

Motor replaced pre-1999

Requirements:
• Vehicle cannot operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any five-minute period
• For Drive Clean testing (if applicable), the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model year and must meet or exceed - the standards set for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles
• Catalytic converter and emission control equipment requirements do not apply to hot rods altered prior to January 1, 1999
• Without emissions control equipment functioning, the vehicle could fail the Drive Clean test

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

Guess I better get a receipt for installation then.

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

johnod wrote:
Guess I better get a receipt for installation then.

I think you mean "find" the receipt you were issued years ago wink

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

DB Cooper wrote:
johnod wrote:
Guess I better get a receipt for installation then.

I think you mean "find" the receipt you were issued years ago

Yes, as in get it out of the file cabinet and put it in the car.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

saefifty wrote:
I live right in the middle of a hot spot for Ministry Of The Environment Enforcement.My shop is here as well..I've done battle with them for at least 5 years now.And won every time except once over a missing cat and the judge reduced that to $50 and I made sure with disclosure etc. it cost them many hundreds at least....The first thing you need to know is most of the time the stop is illegal..Second you don't have to open the hood just because they ask you to, no more than you would have to open your trunk or empty your pockets out for them.Third Refusing to answer questions about what motor you have is your right...The more you talk the more likely you are the giving them probable cause and looking farther.These guys just want your money.They don't have the power of arrest (no gun) and therefore can't detain you.Just leave.They are not police.Unless there is clouds of blue smoke pouring out of your car these people have no right to bother you.They are not experts and usually not qualified and that shows in court..Espesially about hot rods..Every time you entertain them and allow them to write tickets and rape revenue it justifies to their superiors what they are doing.The clean air act was not ment to harass hot rod or antique cars ..I should do a video on how to deal with them in a stop......

You're correct that you don't have to open your hood or give them any info. You're incorrect that you can just drive off. They are still an officer of the law, and can hold you until the OPP show up. They can then order you to take your vehicle to an inspection station where they will go over your car with a fine toothed comb. It's your choice.

Sacotu · COBOURG, ONT

i have a pic from 89 from when we put the engine in the truck? think that will work.

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

DB Cooper wrote:
Here it is, directly from the MOE website.

Original Car (1999 model year or older)

Motor replaced pre-1999

Requirements:
• Vehicle cannot operate if there are visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any five-minute period
• For Drive Clean testing (if applicable), the vehicle is deemed to be a 1980 model year and must meet or exceed - the standards set for “1980 and earlier” model-year vehicles
• Catalytic converter and emission control equipment requirements do not apply to hot rods altered prior to January 1, 1999
• Without emissions control equipment functioning, the vehicle could fail the Drive Clean test

Note the above "if applicable"

An exert from the link below.

Light Passenger Vehicle Exemptions to the Emissions Test-Vehicles exempt from Drive Clean testing requirements:

* All hybrid vehicles (those powered by a combination of internal combustion engines and electric motors)

* Vehicles of the 1987 model year and older

* Vehicles currently designated as “Historic” under the Highway Traffic Act

* Light-duty commercial farm vehicles

* Kit cars

* Motorcycles

http://www.pstc.ca/trucking_today/ontario-issues-drive-clean-emissions-testing-rules/

So it would appear to not be applicable if your vehicle is 1987 or older.

So if you have a engine installed before 99, in a vehicle older than 87, you would seem not to need to meet a test of any sort.

Other Than this exert from the below link

Why don’t vehicles that were built in 1987 or earlier require a Drive Clean test?

Light-duty vehicles built in 1988 were the first to comply with strict vehicle emissions and durability standards.

Older light-duty vehicles do not require a Drive Clean test, but are still subject to the Environmental Protection Act.

This means that provincial officers — anywhere in Ontario — are authorized to stop and inspect your vehicle if they believe:

your vehicle is emitting excessive exhaust smoke
emission control equipment has been tampered with or removed

In this case, you may be:

directed to take a Drive Clean test
subject to penalties including warnings, notices, tickets and summonses

http://www.ontario.ca/environment-and-energy/why-dont-vehicles-were-built-1987-or-earlier-require-drive-clean-test

At least it could be interpreted that way.

-- Edited by johnod on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 02:49:04 PM

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

saefifty wrote:
I live right in the middle of a hot spot for Ministry Of The Environment Enforcement.My shop is here as well..I've done battle with them for at least 5 years now.And won every time except once over a missing cat and the judge reduced that to $50 and I made sure with disclosure etc. it cost them many hundreds at least....The first thing you need to know is most of the time the stop is illegal..Second you don't have to open the hood just because they ask you to, no more than you would have to open your trunk or empty your pockets out for them.Third Refusing to answer questions about what motor you have is your right...The more you talk the more likely you are the giving them probable cause and looking farther.These guys just want your money.They don't have the power of arrest (no gun) and therefore can't detain you.Just leave.They are not police.Unless there is clouds of blue smoke pouring out of your car these people have no right to bother you.They are not experts and usually not qualified and that shows in court..Espesially about hot rods..Every time you entertain them and allow them to write tickets and rape revenue it justifies to their superiors what they are doing.The clean air act was not ment to harass hot rod or antique cars ..I should do a video on how to deal with them in a stop......

i recall a few years ago the ministry, mto or moe im not sure had a waste management truck pulled over in cobourg, the driver got out of the truck and simply walked away leaving the ministry guy standing there, it seems the drivers of waste management are instructed to not co operate and to walk away. this way the company wont incur any fines or at least that what the guy told us after we had picked him up. you are correct that if you give these guys anything they will use it against you. i can believe not having to open the hood is just like refusing unreasonable search and seizure.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Johnod !! Please read and understand this because we have talked about it too often;

DRIVE CLEAN, AND EMISSION REQUIREMENTS FOR OLDER CARS ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
Johnod !! Please read and understand this because we have talked about it too often;

DRIVE CLEAN, AND EMISSION REQUIREMENTS FOR OLDER CARS ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Hemi43 is correct, this has really nothing to do with Driveclean.

1987 and older cars are not required to be "sniffed" every two years (which is Driveclean). That does not mean they aren't required to have all emission related components installed and functioning.

If your 1953 Stude has a 1986 engine in it, it is obviously not required to be "sniffed" every two years. However, you are required to have any and all emission components that came with that engine when it was sold to the public, on it and functioning. If the MOE pulls you over for a visual inspection, they run the casting numbers of the engine block, determine it is a 1986 SBC from a Monte Carlo SS, they will want to see everything that engine left the factory with (as far as emission controls) on it and functioning. If you are missing stuff, you can expect a rather pricey ticket unless you can prove the engine was installed before 1999.

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

I stand corrected, thanks.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Well said DB. I just want to add one thing!! If Johnod can prove that engine was installed prior to Jan1 1999, the emission equipment originally on that engine will not be needed.

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

no matter what happens and no matter what year your car is and engine, if the motor has been replaced with a non stock engine the ministry can make you take an e test, pre 1999 or whatever. so even if you have all the equipment it came with, or didnt, they can still make you do this, its like a back door they have to use against us in case we happen to beat them at their own game.

-- Edited by fatstax on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 04:26:11 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

That's why if you get pulled over, you have to bite your lip and just let them play their game and hopefully you'll be on your way with no issues.

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
I just want to add one thing!! If Johnod can prove that engine was installed prior to Jan1 1999, the emission equipment originally on that engine will not be needed.

Yes, that's what I meant but I guess it came out kinda garbled biggrin

If you can prove the engine was installed before 1999, you don't need any emission controls in place, regardless of what the engine came with. Installed after 1999, you need everything the engine had on it when new.

If you really did have the engine installed before 1999 but aren't able to prove it (I doubt an affadavit would suffice), you're SOL and need to install everything.

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
Well said DB.

Thank you smile

or should I say "Oh yesh, thank you" biggrin

-- Edited by DB Cooper on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 05:34:57 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

DB Cooper wrote:
hemi43 wrote:
Well said DB.

Thank you

or should I say "Oh yesh, thank you"

-- Edited by DB Cooper on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 05:34:57 PM

No need to say "yesh", because I read all your posts that way !! LOL

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

So now , we need to know what constitutes proof?

Wonder if a letter from previous owner does the trick?

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

johnod wrote:
So now , we need to know what constitutes proof?
Wonder if a letter from previous owner does the trick?

An invoice from a licensed mechanic shop, I'll bet.

They've got this figured out nicely.

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

123pugsy wrote:
johnod wrote:
So now , we need to know what constitutes proof?
Wonder if a letter from previous owner does the trick?

An invoice from a licensed mechanic shop, I'll bet.
They've got this figured out nicely.

Yes probably something like that, notice they haven't described what is proof.

I did find this

http://www.ontario.ca/driving-and-roads/do-hot-rods-need-drive-clean-test

Note "ORIGINAL RECEIPT" a copy won't do apparently.

-- Edited by johnod on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 06:27:29 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Let's all remind ourselves that even though these laws are in place, NO ONE with a pre emission car has ever been nailed by the MOE in the 2+ years that we've been talking about it. The only people that have been fined are the ones that knew they were breaking the law because they had emission controlled vehicles with components removed.

hotrod-steve · PORT ROWAN, ONT

I haven't read this entire post,its very long,so maybe its been asked-what about replacement crate motors-are they exempt from all this BS?

toomuchjunk · S/W ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
Let's all remind ourselves that even though these laws are in place, NO ONE with a pre emission car has ever been nailed by the MOE in the 2+ years that we've been talking about it. The only people that have been fined are the ones that knew they were breaking the law because they had emission controlled vehicles with components removed.

thats good to know!!!! I was 'bout to start looking for a flat head

TMJ

hemi43 · ONTARIO

hotrod-steve wrote:
I haven't read this entire post,its very long,so maybe its been asked-what about replacement crate motors-are they exempt from all this BS?

Well, that all depends who you ask!!

I posed that exact question to two MOE enforcement officers, and they told me that crate engines are viewed as "off-road" only. This was a couple of years ago, and some claim that crate engines are now accepted by the MOE as a replacement engine as long as the CAR retains any emission controls it originally had. Again, it will be at the discretion of the Officer pulling you over on the side of the road.

hotrod-steve · PORT ROWAN, ONT

Thanks hemi43-I also read somewhere that GM builds them as a" replacement engine for pre emissions cars and light trucks".So a crate 350 in a pre 70s car or truck may be the way to go. I don't know about Fords and Mopars but they may have something along the same lines.

saefifty · PORT PERRY, ONT

Imagine that illegally detained by MOE...

DaveM · ONTARIO

Only long enough for them to take the license plates off of your car.

And it took 4 months to get them back.

saefifty · PORT PERRY, ONT

So the MOE took your plates for no reason?

DJD · SCARBOROUGH, ONT

though logic seldomly applies , it would have been nice if they had passed legislation requireing everyone to keep every single reciept for parts or work done to a car , before passing legislation that includes a requirement of proof like that of a dated reciept .

not a bad idea in case someone wanted to claim damages against you due to lack of up keep

I've always gone with the basic rule , engine or car - which ever is newer the emissions stuff and tail pipe stink should match

the 70's and 80's carb'ed cars I've always avoided , not really on purpose but the vacume hose draped low power carb motors were never really good for anything other than the cars they came in ... barely

the fuel injected mid 80's to early 90's stuff ain't so bad
the smog stuff on those really dosent hurt as much and avoiding anything that has an air pump is a definate plus

but , a dash camera , and pulling in behind the MOE or MTO guy who jumps outta his air conditioned , idleing vehicle to wave you over might result in a short conversation before your on your way

an emotional detachment really helps with power trippie civil servents
the attitude of my chain is much to big and heavy for you to even pick up much less have any hope of yanking , followed by their's , eah , not so much ....

I hate to say it though , what , the first post (?) mentioned durham region ... ? - that, there is the root of the issue

most polite way I can put it is durham , tryes a little to hard , region is .. different , just different .

-- Edited by DJD on Thursday 17th of April 2014 12:57:22 AM

DaveM · ONTARIO

saefifty wrote:
So the MOE took your plates for no reason?

Not my car, but a buddies that I had just put an engine and trans in. Plates were confiscated for no cats.

Point being, they do have the authority to enforce the law. I don't see being defiant as helping the cause. They'll just hand you or mail you a summons to get your car inspected at their discretion.

Being compliant is really not that difficult to do if we have the correct information and a little more clarity.

The only way it goes away is if they no longer find infractions.

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

i figure a dash cam is a must, i run one every time i drive anywhere, these guys hate being recorded as they cant so easily trample your rights and behave like dicks. we have to assume that these guys are going to be jerks from the get go, if they are not even better, but they are revenue collectors, that must always be considered when dealing with these guys. be sure to tell them right away you are recording them, this can make your exchange pretty short and you will be likely on your way in no time.

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Not sure if this has been asked before . Lets go with drag cars ,say on a trailer or a tote,licenced but not being driven at the time. Would they have to pass at that moment as apposed to if stopped while moving under there own power. Might be wise to pull the plates on a trailered car before ,they, do? Ed

51 Styline · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

After reading all the previous posts its no wonder i have white hair which is severely thinning. I was looking forward to driving my car quite a bit this summer but after reading all this i,m not so sure. My car, 51 Chev,85 Chev 350 engine, cam and Q-jet makes me nervous now. The engine was free, no receipts at all, i did the install myself, no receipts, and rebuilt the engine myself. I worked at a G M dealership at the time, the engine was a warranty replacement that was to be thrown out so i asked for it. The guys in the dealership helped with the install so there was no charges , except for a few brown pops. This all happened in 1988 but i have no receipts to prove it. I think i may be screwed. From what i,ve read here i can,t even sell the car. I may cut the roof off and turn it in to a big flowerpot.

saefifty · PORT PERRY, ONT

Wow....i

saefifty · PORT PERRY, ONT

m speechless.......I lost sleep reading the act they passed that started all this. Its clear the reason the enforcement needed the power .This was given to them to be able to deal with ships and trucks and tankers hauling toxic waste and such..And as usual these power struck idiots at the enforcement level are using it on hot rods...

saefifty · PORT PERRY, ONT

I build motors for hot rods its what i do to feed myself.this crap threatens my buissiness.I'm a licensed mechanic and clean air repair tech.And I have built at least one motor this winter that if the driver or his wife when stopped by MOE will have a problem.Especially if they answer the questions wrong..I have never been notified by the ministry that licensed me that this could be a problem as big as this..I can see how decking off the serial and grinding casting numbers and making a sworn affidavit that the engine complies and sending a copy registered mail to the police and the ministry mite become part of my trade... Customer can carry it in the car..I went to court on one these and because I'm licensed and MOE cop isn't the judge ruled the Act was ambiguous and she had to take the testimony of the most qualified person there..And that was me so they dismissed it..I also submitted the whole clean air act into evidence.I'm sure not wanting to read it was a factor as well... lol ...

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

51 Styline wrote:
After reading all the previous posts its no wonder i have white hair which is severely thinning. I was looking forward to driving my car quite a bit this summer but after reading all this i,m not so sure. My car, 51 Chev,85 Chev 350 engine, cam and Q-jet makes me nervous now. The engine was free, no receipts at all, i did the install myself, no receipts, and rebuilt the engine myself. I worked at a G M dealership at the time, the engine was a warranty replacement that was to be thrown out so i asked for it. The guys in the dealership helped with the install so there was no charges , except for a few brown pops. This all happened in 1988 but i have no receipts to prove it. I think i may be screwed. From what i,ve read here i can,t even sell the car. I may cut the roof off and turn it in to a big flowerpot.

You are not screwed.

The only thing you need to worry about is a roadside inspection by the MOE.

IF you get inspected, you can expect a ticket.

If you want to avoid this issue entirely, either change the block to an early one (and use your heads, intake and internals) or add an EGR, CATS, EVAP can etc (whatever the engine came with when new). The Qjet is probably all ready to accept the vacuum lines, if not, it shouldn't be hard to find an emission era Qjet.

They don't (at present) inspect cars for emission components when preparing to sell so no worries there.

saefifty · PORT PERRY, ONT

I have a copy of the original mission statement somewhere and it states it should be of no impact on the antique car or aftermarket industry ?????????

51 Styline · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

saefifty wrote:
Wow....i So what do you think . Annuals or perrennials?

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

I really don't think removing all casting numbers is the right way to go.

I'd bet the MOE will say that if they aren't able to determine the blocks date of manufacture, it will be up to you to prove to them that it is whatever you are telling them it is. You won't be able to prove anything if all the identifying numbers are no longer on the block.

I can't see that ending well.

51 Styline · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

51 Styline wrote:
saefifty wrote:
Wow....i
So what do you think? Annuals or Perrennials ?

58Chev · ETOBICOKE, ONT

51 Styline wrote:
51 Styline wrote:
saefifty wrote:
Wow....i
So what do you think? Annuals or Perrennials ?

Just fill it with dirt and let the weeds grow.