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Post Info TOPIC: meaning of available crate engine ?


AJAX, ONT

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meaning of available crate engine ?
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No gray areas at all (if I am correct that is biggrin).

 

Here are the rules ... IF an engine was sold to the public WITH emission controls, then it MUST still have them installed and functioning.  If a car is sold to the public WITH emission controls, then it MUST still have them installed and functioning.  The required emission control equipment is determined by whichever is newer, the car or the engine. 

Now, since a crate engine (although brand new) is being sold to the public with NO emission controls, the only determining factor will be the year of the car.  For example, a 1940 Ford did not have emission controls so the crate engine can be legally installed in the 1940 with NO emission controls needed because neither the car nor the engine ever had them (even though the engine is brand new).  However, if you install a crate engine in a 1986 Camaro, you are legally required to have all the 1986 emission controls installed and functioning. 

 

!953-54 Chev never had emission controls and the crate engine never came with them either ... that means he's "good to go".biggrin

 

 

If the owner has a 1986 Camaro with a SBC, suffers massive engine failure, he has options ... he can install another SBC out of a newer vehicle, an engine out of an older vehicle, or a crate engine.  The problem lies in the year of the engine (determined by block casting numbers) ... if the engine he installs is from a 1993 Impala, he is required to install all of the emission controls that came with the Impala because that engine is the newer of the two and was sold to the public with emission controls.  If he installs a 1955 265 SBC in his Camaro, he is required to equip the engine with all of the emission equipment the Camaro came with even though the engine itself never had any (whichever is newer).  If the Camaro owner installs a crate engine, he only needs the original emission controls that came with the car due to the fact that the crate engine was never sold to the public with emission controls installed.

Basically this ... if you are combining an engine and a car where both the engine and the car were sold to the public with emission controls, the equipment requirements are based on whichever is newer.  Even though a crate engine IS brand new, since it was never equipped with emission controls, the "whichever is newer" does not apply, you go by the year of the vehicle.

 

 



-- Edited by Pint and a Pound on Wednesday 16th of January 2013 01:09:24 PM

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AJAX, ONT

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The 572 Dart engine is probably using a Dart block. The MOE use block casting numbers to determine what the engine came out of and therefore what it was equipped with emissions wise. Since the Dart block will not show up in their database/books as having come with emission controls (like an engine block from a 1979 3/4 ton would), you should only need to equip the Chevelle with whatever the car itself was equipped with from the factory.

The 5L in the 50 P-up can be an issue ... legally you are required to equip the truck with whatever the 5L had on it from the factory.

1969 Coronet with a 1969 Hemi ... both the same year so "whichever is newer" does not apply. Simply equip it with whatever the Hemi came with (emissions wise) in 1969.

1967 Galaxy with original engine ... whatever the car came with is all that's required.

1940 Pontiac with an LS engine ... if the LS engine was removed from a Firebird (for example), since the engine was sold to the public WITH emission controls, you are required to have everything that engine came with installed and functioning in your 1940 Pontiac. Buy a "crate engine" and you don't need anything since the engine was sold to the public without any emission controls and the car itself never had any either. However, if you are going carbed, it is my understanding that the MOE wants to see a pcv in one valve cover and a hose running from the other valve cover to the air breather.



-- Edited by Pint and a Pound on Wednesday 16th of January 2013 01:34:33 PM

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AJAX, ONT

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I would copy/paste directly from the MOE site if it wasn't down at the moment.  I thought it was clearly written that since crate engines were sold to the public without emission controls, they would be using the year of the vehicle to determine what equipment was needed.  Unfortunately their website appears to be down at the moment so I can't locate it/post it.

 

Maybe the "Idle No More" clowns have taken over the gov't computers now biggrinno.

 

 



-- Edited by Pint and a Pound on Wednesday 16th of January 2013 02:08:16 PM

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FOXBORO, ONT

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i started this thread because i didn't want to ask a question about a different topic on somebody else's thread.

 he was doing a resto on a 54 chev and putting in a used Z06 engine and there where ??'s due to emissions. but, somebody said this,

"Perfect, didn't realize the Z06 was a crate engine ... you're good to go."

whats the signifigance of the Z06 also being a crate engine, if any? here is how i am reading this. the Z engine also being a crate motor somehow skirts the new rules on emissions. i am probably miss understanding it but i am asking. i really have to take some kaopectate on this subject and learn some stuff about it. i am nervous on the 50 ford p/u with the 5lt in it and the 70 chevelle with the 572 dart engine. if there is a significance due to being available in crates i might be ok. i know the 5lt will be available in a crate but the 572 i don't know. dart does offer a short block crate and i will check on the long block  end of it. chevy has 2 different 572 crates available.

the 69 coronet has a date correct hemi in it but from a road runner. it was available new with a hemi option though.

the 67 galaxie is bone stock with the 428 so it should be ok.

i am concerned about the 40 pontiac when it gets in for its turn in the shop, probably next winter. i was hoping on putting the LS? from the hearse in it.

 anyway, sorry for being a "johnny come lately to the party" but i would like to know. this whole subject has me confused.    thanks



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ONTARIO

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Basically:

If an engine was removed from an emmissions compliant vehicle, the emmissions equipement that came on the engine, in that vehicle, needs to be used in the swap.

If an engine is bought over the counter as a "crate" engine, or was never used in a production, emmissions compliant vehicle, that rule does not apply, fully.

Keeping you "crate" documentation engine reciepts in the car is a good idea.

 

Your Hearse LS swap, you need the emmissions stuff. What year, what motor?

 

 



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ONTARIO

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Hey Shag !! We've been talking about this for almost a year now, and there's still "gray" areas, especially when it comes down to crate engines. It's all about interpretation !! I still believe that running a crate engine on the street will cause issues with the MOE if it doesn't have all the emission controls attached for the year of the engine.
Some seem to think that since crate engines never had any emission controls you should be "Good to go" !! I disagree, because crate engines are for off-road use only. The information that I just told you above is not my interpretation, but information that was told to me by an MOE Enforcement Officer when I had a meeting with them.



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NEWCASTLE, ONT

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hemi43 wrote:

Hey Shag !! We've been talking about this for almost a year now, and there's still "gray" areas, especially when it comes down to crate engines. It's all about interpretation !! I still believe that running a crate engine on the street will cause issues with the MOE if it doesn't have all the emission controls attached for the year of the engine.
Some seem to think that since crate engines never had any emission controls you should be "Good to go" !! I disagree, because crate engines are for off-road use only. The information that I just told you above is not my interpretation, but information that was told to me by an MOE Enforcement Officer when I had a meeting with them.


The 54 getting the LS is mine.....I spoke with the MOE supervisor ( have his name at home), sent him my concerns in rergards to installing the crate engine......the response I got was:

Have in place any emmission devices that were factory ( None so not requred)

The vehicle will have to meet the visable emmissions requirements ( no continuous somke for 15 sec over 5 mins)

Have any emmissions equipment the crate engine came with (which is none, there for not required)

If asked may have to go for an emmission test to meet 1980 standards ( this would be a two speed idle test) What`s the big deal with this?? If any one has half a clue how to properly tune a car, this will not be an issue...

When I questioned on how I can prove this is a crate engine..Response was :having the invoice and any other warranty/catalog to show the part numbers would be sufficiant...just my 2 cents.....



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AJAX, ONT

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TIME TRAVELLER wrote:

At the recent MOE meeting with SVAO, the MOE people clearly stated that their officers do NOT check the serial numbers on engine blocks – they take the word of the driver about the engine identification. I’m not sure if that’s actually the case but that’s what they said. Also, a crate engine in a ’86 Camaro does not require the ’86 emission equipment, the car just has to meet the ’86 tailpipe standards if (big “if”) it goes through a Drive Clean test, which would be a two-speed idle test now. MOE’s position is that it wouldn’t be able to pass this test without the equipment but some may disagree! In a ’54 vehicle, that Z06 wouldn’t need anything, but it might be a good idea to carry a receipt for the engine in the car just in case, identifying it as a “crate” engine.


 

I think you are right actually now that I read the example that I posted again ... quote:   "•meet or exceed the 2005 standards for that original motor if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test. Although emissions control equipment is not required, without it, the car would likely fail the Drive Clean test."  It sure does sound like any year vehicle that has a crate engine is not required to have any emission controls of any kind but must be able to pass an emission test if required.

When I first read your comment I thought "that's not correct" but I actually think it is.  Unfortunately the MOE website is down right now so I can't do any more "research" but it sure seems like a crate engine is legal in anything as long as it can pass the actual test (which could possibly be passable with just a cat or cats a pcv and nothing else).

Time for me to seriously think about selling off some of my old stuff and investing in a roller cam crate engine so I can avoid any and all of this crap. 

I do believe that the elimination of any and all emission equipment only applies to crate motors and not motors that have been removed from either earlier or later vehicles (meaning the "whichever is newer" applies if the replacement engine has been removed from a donor vehicle and is not a crate engine).

Thanks for posting.



-- Edited by Pint and a Pound on Wednesday 16th of January 2013 08:53:27 PM

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AJAX, ONT

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Here is the copy/paste directly from the MOE site regarding installation of a crate motor ...

 

Start of quote:

"Q: The owner of a 2005 Chevrolet vehicle installed a 2011 crate motor. (The 2011 crate motor was not designed or equipped with any emission components). What are the emission requirements?

A: This vehicle must:
•meet the visible emission standards
•meet the emission standards set for the original motor (2005).
•have all emissions control equipment normally included with the replacement motor (2011), or its equivalent, attached and functioning. Since the crate motor did not come with any emission components, none are required.
•meet or exceed the 2005 standards for that original motor if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test. Although emissions control equipment is not required, without it, the car would likely fail the Drive Clean test."

 

End of quote:

 

The key is right here:

"•have all emissions control equipment normally included with the replacement motor (2011), or its equivalent, attached and functioning. Since the crate motor did not come with any emission components, none are required."

 

This is obviously the MOE's way of "muddying the water" and thereby causing confusion.  Since this example the MOE gives specifically states in the "question" part of this example that the 2011 replacement engine they are talking about actually IS a crate motor, and they go on to state that (and I quote) "Since the crate motor did not come with any emisssion components, none are required" ... the MOE had absolutely no business adding the sentence "have all emissions control equipment normally included with the replacement motor (2011), or its equivalent, attached and functioning".  This sentence clearly does NOT pertain to a crate motor based on the sentence that follows stating "no emission controls are required on a crate engine".  I believe what the MOE attempted to do was remind us that a replacement engine removed from a 2011 vehicle would "normally" (their word) be required to be equipped with emission controls if the engine had been removed from a GM vehicle that was sold to the public with emission controls, yet all that it does is add more confusion because that one damn sentence has absolutely NOTHING to do with crate motors.

 

Interestingly, I sent them a specific question regarding something else emission related and got what I believe was a vague answer ... after rewording/resending my question (almost a month ago now), I have yet to receive a second reply.  Seems these people thrive on being vague so they can have some "wiggle room" in the interpretation department.

 

I personally believe that attending court with a copy of the "Since a crate motor did not come with any emission components, none are required" quote taken directly from the MOE website would result in a ticket for running a crate engine being thrown out (you would also need proof that the engine you are using actually IS a crate engine).

 

Obviously, the above posted is simply my interpretation of the legality and the emission requirements of a crate motor ... roadside MOE inspectors (and others) may view things very differently ... biggrin

 

 

 

 

 



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ONTARIO

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Thanks Pint !! The meeting I had with the MOE was 1 1/2 years ago, and their view back then was that crate engines were , and I quote, "for off-road use only". Nice to see that they now have it in writing that they infact are allowed to be used on public roads.

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NIAGARA REGION, ONT

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At the recent MOE meeting with SVAO, the MOE people clearly stated that their officers do NOT check the serial numbers on engine blocks – they take the word of the driver about the engine identification. I’m not sure if that’s actually the case but that’s what they said. Also, a crate engine in a ’86 Camaro does not require the ’86 emission equipment, the car just has to meet the ’86 tailpipe standards if (big “if”) it goes through a Drive Clean test, which would be a two-speed idle test now. MOE’s position is that it wouldn’t be able to pass this test without the equipment but some may disagree! In a ’54 vehicle, that Z06 wouldn’t need anything, but it might be a good idea to carry a receipt for the engine in the car just in case, identifying it as a “crate” engine.

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BOWMANVILLE, ONT

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You might recall that in about August/September(ish) the MOE came out with a revision, simplified version of the rules: i believe at the time they stated that crate engines are exempt now.

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INGERSOLL, ONT

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"their officers do NOT check the serial numbers on engine blocks – they take the word of the driver about the engine identification."

 

I currently have no clue what the engine in my truck came out of. 350 two bolt main of some description. The block, the front main cap and rear main cap are the only GM parts left. Hard to believe the emission standards are going to be set by a rather modified lump of iron. I guess they have to start somewhere.

I keep toying with the idea of ditching the carb and switching to a tpi setup, that should really mess them up. If done right it should get better milage and better emmissions. Just going to have to do my homework and make sure everything is by the book from now on.

My long term plan for the wagon is a crate coyote motor, I really want to be sure with that one. 



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PRINCE EDWARD COUNTY, ONT

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As far as testing goes, any engine installed after 1999 must meet it's date of manufacture e-testing levels or if the engine is pre e-test, it must test at 600 ppm and 5% or better. As far as MOE is concerned, they want all polution controls associated with the engine, installed. Even if the engine never came with polution controls, it must still test at 600 ppm and 5%. These are pretty easy levels to achieve and it might be worth one's while to spend $40 and do an e-test to know your position when you get stopped. If you don't know the date of manufacture of your engine (excluding crate engines) start searching for block or head numbers. These guys are after you and it is better to be prepared then caught with your pants down. They will win.

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/environment...OD_098206.html

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/stdprodcons...rod_080001.pdf 



-- Edited by wuga on Saturday 16th of February 2013 03:20:39 PM

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BLACKSTOCK, ONT

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The only test they can do now since the Dyno was retired is a "snap" throttle test [so i've read] on our older vehicles with no OBDII plug in!!! Talk radio 640 was "just slammin" the Drive Clean new testing procedure, & all the stupid failures for "computer not ready" & one caller said he failer for "low fuel" light on???

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