Question for Hemi

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

Question for Hemi

Fordy Acres Car Farm · DORCHESTER, ONT

I'm no Hemi, but I would imagine a brand new pair of trick chromoly tube upper arms could be fabbed for less than $700.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

cry

hemi43 · ONTARIO

In theory, yes !! In practical, no!
The part would have to be heated to straighten back out, the re-heat treated. I'm not sure if magafluxing works on non-ferrous metals. I've always used dye.
I will never weld or bend aluminum using heat if it's a structural part especially is if was cast. I don't think you'll find anyone that will because of liability reasons. Just my opinion.

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

If it's an A arm I would think its forged. No one would make an A arm from cast not even steel and not expect to be sued .

hemi43 · ONTARIO

slim wrote:
If it's an A arm I would think its forged. No one would make an A arm from cast not even steel and not expect to be sued .

Casting technology has come a long way from the stuff we're used to. A lot of Japanese bikes use castings for their suspensions like rear swing arms, and I've never heard of one failing.

If they can make connecting rods for today's engines from powdered metal, I'm sure control arms can be cast. TRW claims that some of their arms are in fact cast.

https://www.trwaftermarket.com/us/Passenger-Car/Chassis/Control-Arms/

Corvette cast upper control arms

http://www.speeddirect.com/index.php/suspension/corvette-shark-bite/aluminum-control-arms-details

Roger; Any pictures or description of what you're working on?? If it is forged, and not too bent, you may be able to straighten it without heat.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Wednesday 26th of March 2014 09:10:50 PM

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

They are not forged, believe it or not.

www.designnews.com/document.asp.

I still wouldn't trust it, after it's been straightened.
Castings simply don't have the molecular structure of a forging. Even if it was forged, it would likely fail in the same area, as the material has been stretched.

-- Edited by Gazoo on Wednesday 26th of March 2014 09:19:05 PM

-- Edited by Gazoo on Wednesday 26th of March 2014 09:19:47 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Like I said, I have no idea what he's working on or how bad the damage is. If it's a forging, and it has a SMALL tweak in it because the car was in a wreck, I may try and straighten it. If it's damaged to the point where the metal has stretched, then I would melt it and cast it into an Ontario Rodder plaque.

shaggn · LONDON, ONT

hemi43 wrote:
Like I said, I have no idea what he's working on or how bad the damage is. If it's a forging, and it has a SMALL tweak in it because the car was in a wreck, I may try and straighten it. If it's damaged to the point where the metal has stretched, then I would melt it and cast it into an Ontario Rodder plaque.

lmao....think i hear ebay calling..

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

I will take a picture of it tomorrow. Pretty sure it is cast because it has casting marks along the length of it. I don't really need it. I just wondered if it was salvagable because of the relative rareity of it. It's a prowler part and prowler parts are gold even when they are aluminum lol. Interesting though. I thought it might be a risky venture but I wasn't sure. It sure must be strong though to take the hit it did and not break.

Fordy Acres Car Farm · DORCHESTER, ONT

In a lot of cases, things like this are only strong once. Much like a motorcycle helmet, once hit, it becomes compromised.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

hemi43 wrote:
Like I said, I have no idea what he's working on or how bad the damage is. If it's a forging, and it has a SMALL tweak in it because the car was in a wreck, I may try and straighten it. If it's damaged to the point where the metal has stretched, then I would melt it and cast it into an Ontario Rodder plaque.

No need to get all defensive, I simply re-affirmed that the part was cast, and NOT forged.

This is what you said: "I will never weld or bend aluminum using heat if it's a structural part especially is if was cast."

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

From the article I would have to say they are using semi solid cutting edge at that time it leaves the molecular structure unchanged. basically you heat a billet to just below the melting point and inject it into a mold. I would expect this is what TRW is doing on what they call cast parts. they have been running some tests in st kits with forged aluminum . The only problem with powdered metal is its extremely brittle drop it and its done. Cast is cast and even if you manage to achieve 0 porosity you have still changed the structure . like cast steel its just a mass of grains and doesn't have the strength .

-- Edited by slim on Wednesday 26th of March 2014 10:24:24 PM

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

Good article Gazz! I haven't seen that one before. I'm gunna post it up on the facebook page. Just a note on the article, in 1999 the prowler went to an aluminum block 3.5 and a boost in the hp to 253. This addressed a complaint from some owners that the car was underpowered. So the 97 was the only model with the iron block. There was no 98 Prowler.

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

hemi43 wrote:
In theory, yes !! In practical, no!
The part would have to be heated to straighten back out, the re-heat treated. I'm not sure if magafluxing works on non-ferrous metals. I've always used dye.
I will never weld or bend aluminum using heat if it's a structural part especially is if was cast. I don't think you'll find anyone that will because of liability reasons. Just my opinion.

You can't magnaflux aluminum, the metal needs to be ferrous to do so because of the magnet you use while magnafluxing. (Something I remembered from trade school)

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Gazoo wrote:
hemi43 wrote:
Like I said, I have no idea what he's working on or how bad the damage is. If it's a forging, and it has a SMALL tweak in it because the car was in a wreck, I may try and straighten it. If it's damaged to the point where the metal has stretched, then I would melt it and cast it into an Ontario Rodder plaque.
No need to get all defensive, I simply re-affirmed that the part was cast, and NOT forged.
This is what you said: "I will never weld or bend aluminum using heat if it's a structural part especially is if was cast."

Ahhh, the joys of chat forums. I have no idea where I became defensive, and actually thought we were having a great discussion. hmm hmm

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

another guy i know has a body shop in town, i get all the aluminum parts that get replaced on smucked up cars, i actually asked him years ago why he didnt fix them, he said you cant and have it be 100 percent safe. once aluminum bends it changes the structure of the peice. i would imagine being a body shop they cant straighten out parts like that without being liable if they break.

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

hemi43 wrote:
Gazoo wrote:
hemi43 wrote:
Like I said, I have no idea what he's working on or how bad the damage is. If it's a forging, and it has a SMALL tweak in it because the car was in a wreck, I may try and straighten it. If it's damaged to the point where the metal has stretched, then I would melt it and cast it into an Ontario Rodder plaque.
No need to get all defensive, I simply re-affirmed that the part was cast, and NOT forged.
This is what you said: "I will never weld or bend aluminum using heat if it's a structural part especially is if was cast."
Ahhh, the joys of chat forums. I have no idea where I became defensive, and actually thought we were having a great discussion.

This is meant as a metaphor

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Ahhh, the joys of chat forums. I have no idea where I became defensive, and actually thought we were having a great discussion. hmm hmm

My bad, maybe starting a sentence with " Like I said,...", followed shortly after by bold and capitalized letters, I got the wrong impression. confuse

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

So here are the pics of it. I pretty much got my answer though,,,,,thanks

bentA1.jpg.JPG

hemi43 · ONTARIO

If it was for my own car, I would straighten it. I wouldn't do it if it was for someone else's car though.

BTW; difficult to see, but it looks forged. IMO

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 27th of March 2014 08:12:07 PM

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

I posed the question on one of the prowler forums and the answer is FORGED.

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Not as bad as i thought it would be. As hemi said if it was for myself id anneal it , straighten and re heat treat.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

I would straighten it as is. It will be fine. Annealing and heat treating will just cause more problems. It's only a friggin control arm!!

JohnnyBgood · ST CATHARINES, ONT

Get the biggest hammer you can find and give it a wack.....

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

JohnnyBgood wrote:
Get the biggest hammer you can find and give it a wack.....

LOL I think I'd use a press.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

MANCAVER wrote:
JohnnyBgood wrote:
Get the biggest hammer you can find and give it a wack.....
LOL I think I'd use a press.

Yeah, it will be fine. When you first posted the question, I pictures something bent 90 degrees. I wouldn't be worried about the slight bend in it , especially if it's a forging.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 27th of March 2014 11:35:46 PM

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

hemi43 wrote:
I would straighten it as is. It will be fine. Annealing and heat treating will just cause more problems. It's only a friggin control arm!!

Without removing the stress it will just bend again . Its aluminum The process is as simple as it gets I cant see it causing any problems

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Agreed it sure looks like a forging. But according to the manufacturer's website I posted earlier, it isn't.

But with the bend I see in the pics, it's spanned over a large radius, not a sharp bend at all. Although it does look like it's bent in two directions, inwards a touch and upwards.

I would also take a shot at just straightening it. It will be weaker than original, but nothing dramatic.
You could go through the process of annealing and re-heat treat, but the heat treat, will make it bend again, if not properly re-strained.

You might loose a bit of geometric position, camber and caster, but all is adjustable.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

This is the problem with asking questions on the net. Everyone has their own theory about how something should be done. That A-arm probably has a 10X safety factor built into it, and re-straightening it out may weaken it a bit, but it will still perform fine. Annealing and re-hardening would cause more harm than good, and how is he supposed to do it in a controlled setting? Kitchen oven?? Torches ?? I would press the bend out of it a be done with it. No point over enginneering this simple procedure. It ain't the space shuttle we're working on.

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

If you try heating that control arm you will have to take the bushings and balljoint out first. Or they will be toast. I think those parts are not available separate either.
I agree with Hemi, my own car, try to fix, customer, no way.

DaveM · ONTARIO

I wanna play.

Gazoo wrote:
Agreed it sure looks like a forging. But according to the manufacturer's website I posted earlier, it isn't.

"....Prowler uses virtually every known alloy and form of aluminum, from extrusions and castings in the frame, to suspension components made with a new semi-solid forging (SSF) technology. "

Forged.

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

Lightspeed Mike wrote:
I think those parts are not available separate either.

You are right Mike. The upper ball joint is not available separately. The lower is,,,,,,go figure

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

DaveM wrote:
I wanna play.
Gazoo wrote:
Agreed it sure looks like a forging. But according to the manufacturer's website I posted earlier, it isn't.

"....Prowler uses virtually every known alloy and form of aluminum, from extrusions and castings in the frame, to suspension components made with a new semi-solid forging (SSF) technology. "

Forged.

Although the word forged is used in the name, if you read up on the actual process SSF...it's more like an injection molding process.

But certainly not was is known as actual forging process, where the liquified material is poured into a die, and pressure is applied to the outside of the die, compressing the material inside.

SSF is no doubt a lot better then casting, the grain is much denser etc..., but still not quite as good as Forged (Old School).

SSF is quicker and cheaper process, and it is strong. Still not good enough compared to a forging, not accepted in the aerospace for any structural components.

First you do you're homework, then you can come and play. biggrin wink

Read page 103, http://books.google.ca/books?id=Lskj5k3PSIcC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=semi-solid+forging+process&source=bl&ots=FtF36eewgZ&sig=sPsFFqIlCi9JGJ3R1i213uzq6-4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mAQ2U6XsIrLLsQSF84K4Cg&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=semi-solid%20forging%20process&f=false

This one is a bit long winded, but better explains, http://www.wiley-vch.de/books/sample/3527322043_c01.pdf.

DaveM · ONTARIO

Got it... semi solid forging is not really real forging, all forging's start as liquid metal, and don't take a Prowler to the ISS.

Homework assignment complete...save to memory. wink

JohnnyBgood · ST CATHARINES, ONT

Worked in the forge at GM in the late 70s. Stick a metal blank in giant hammer press. Hit it a few times and you got a part. Ya hit it to make it so I say hit it to straighten it.....hmmmm maybe not the same process used for the prowler..eh

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

JohnnyBgood wrote:
Worked in the forge at GM in the late 70s. Stick a metal blank in giant hammer press. Hit it a few times and you got a part. Ya hit it to make it so I say hit it to straighten it.....hmmmm maybe not the same process used for the prowler..eh

Well Johnny, you go straight to detention, for incomplete homework!

That would be a stamping, you described. Besides maybe the crankshaft, what else is actually forged on a car?

MANCAVER · info@mancavestuff.ca

Gears in the rears? Just a guess

JohnnyBgood · ST CATHARINES, ONT

We poured the cranks in the foundry. We had the foundry on Glendale and the forge on Ontario. Maybe it was a stamp process but they called it a forge. Made a part that looked like a knuckle but i dont think it was a knuckle and a small dounut thing I think ended up been a small gear of some sort. Think one part was some sort of a tie rod end we made for the Winabagos and big riggs. They also made parts for the locomotives for a while. No idea what they were. They made some other parts on the other machines but i was only there for 2 weeks before i was able to go back to the foundry. We would also heat treat those knuckle and gear things in the foundy too. We poured brake drums in the 1970s for Ford too. Maybe not a forge but thats what they called it so I assumed it was a forge process.. I thought stamping was sheet steel like A arms and such?... those little gears might have been called spider gears??

-- Edited by JohnnyBgood on Friday 28th of March 2014 09:08:25 PM

-- Edited by JohnnyBgood on Friday 28th of March 2014 09:10:49 PM

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

JohnnyBgood wrote:
We poured the cranks in the foundry. We had the foundry on Glendale and the forge on Ontario. Maybe it was a stamp process but they called it a forge. Made a part that looked like a knuckle but i dont think it was a knuckle and a small dounut thing I think ended up been a small gear of some sort. Think one part was some sort of a tie rod end we made for the Winabagos and big riggs. They also made parts for the locomotives for a while. No idea what they were. They made some other parts on the other machines but i was only there for 2 weeks before i was able to go back to the foundry. We would also heat treat those knuckle and gear things in the foundy too. We poured brake drums in the 1970s for Ford too. Maybe not a forge but thats what they called it so I assumed it was a forge process.. I thought stamping was sheet steel like A arms and such?... those little gears might have been called spider gears??

-- Edited by JohnnyBgood on Friday 28th of March 2014 09:08:25 PM

-- Edited by JohnnyBgood on Friday 28th of March 2014 09:10:49 PM

You're right Johnny, stamping is generally sheet metal, like A arms. That's what I thought you meant, when you said threw a piece of metal in the press.

But you are also right with steering components, some are cold forged.

-- Edited by Gazoo on Friday 28th of March 2014 09:16:50 PM

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

MANCAVER wrote:
Gears in the rears? Just a guess

Yes, but not always, just like cranks. And pistons.

DaveM · ONTARIO

Gazoo wrote:

Although the word forged is used in the name, if you read up on the actual process SSF...it's more like an injection molding process.
But certainly not was is known as actual forging process, where the liquified material is poured into a die, and pressure is applied to the outside of the die, compressing the material inside.

.....But you are also right with steering components, some are cold forged.

What is this cold forging nonsense that you speak of. Where is the liquefied material man? confuse

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

I seem to remember the Ford GT (2005ish) had issues with an aluminum part of the rear suspension. Ford ended up servicing the recall by remaking them out of billet (if I'm correct). Wonder if the original Ford part was stamp compressed, liquified cold form, hollow casting mild forged, aluminum grain press configured. That would totally explain why it failed.

(I really need to stop butting beer on my Cheerios)

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

DB Cooper wrote:
I seem to remember the Ford GT (2005ish) had issues with an aluminum part of the rear suspension. Ford ended up servicing the recall by remaking them out of billet (if I'm correct). Wonder if the original Ford part was stamp compressed, liquified cold form, hollow casting mild forged, aluminum grain press configured. That would totally explain why it failed.

(I really need to stop butting beer on my Cheerios)

Corvette had the same issue with aluminum control arms about the same time frame. They too then had them made from billet. That was an expensive recall.

It's true cause I remember reading it in HOT Rod magazine! biggrin

henrys57wagon · WOODLAWN, ONT

Quite a conversation on forging. My understanding is parts hit repeatedly to get the correct shape is Forging. Feel free to continue the discussion.

Here is a link to a definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging

This article is about the metalworking process. For specific hot forging hearth, see forge. For the act of counterfeiting, see forgery.

Hot metal ingot being loaded into a hammer forge

Forging is a manufacturing process involving the shaping of metal using localized compressive forces. Forging is often classified according to the temperature at which it is performed: "cold", "warm", or "hot" forging. Forged parts can range in weight from less than a kilogram to 580 metric tons.^[1]^[2] Forged parts usually require further processing to achieve a finished part. Forging as an art form started with the desire to produce decorative objects from precious metals. Today, forging is a major world-wide industry that has significantly contributed to humanity's development.^[3]

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

DaveM wrote:
Gazoo wrote:

Although the word forged is used in the name, if you read up on the actual process SSF...it's more like an injection molding process.
But certainly not was is known as actual forging process, where the liquified material is poured into a die, and pressure is applied to the outside of the die, compressing the material inside.

.....But you are also right with steering components, some are cold forged.

What is this cold forging nonsense that you speak of. Where is the liquefied material man?

Well, not to confuse the action of forging, what the Black Smith's used to do with Horseshoes. Which results in forged steel. That is not what is considered a forging.

The forging process Johnny refers to, is typically a part heated up, but not liquified, and dropped in a vertical high pressure press. This condenses the density of the material, but since it wasn't liquified, it very well might still have porosity (air pockets).

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Interesting read Henry.

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

A arms are hot forged the process is a billet of the correct type size and length are induction heated sent through a roll ( think big ringer washer with the mating surfaces machined to the correct pattern) 3 to 4 times to give you the correct shape then bent and the ends flattened with an anvil , placed in a forging press normally two hits to get the blank then in the trim press to trim the blank the part may or may not go from there to a coining press. that is pretty well how its done start to finish you are looking at 20 or 30 seconds. Cast starts as a liquid , forged starts as a known solid and stays that way is the simple answer I can think of a couple hundred different ways I've seen these two things done in the last 35 years but it basically comes down to how you alter the grain structure of the base material

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Gazoo wrote:
DaveM wrote:
Gazoo wrote:

Although the word forged is used in the name, if you read up on the actual process SSF...it's more like an injection molding process.
But certainly not was is known as actual forging process, where the liquified material is poured into a die, and pressure is applied to the outside of the die, compressing the material inside.

.....But you are also right with steering components, some are cold forged.

What is this cold forging nonsense that you speak of. Where is the liquefied material man?
Well, not to confuse the action of forging, what the Black Smith's used to do with Horseshoes. Which results in forged steel. That is not what is considered a forging.
The forging process Johnny refers to, is typically a part heated up, but not liquified, and dropped in a vertical high pressure press. This condenses the density of the material, but since it wasn't liquified, it very well might still have porosity (air pockets).

cold forge is normally done on a header the machine is feed by a coil sheared and feed through step dies to get the correct shape no heat is used . you cannot induce porosity in a solid billet its impossible or should I say highly unlikely. porosity is the inclusion of air in the pouring process or is induced in the injection process where you allow the liquid metal to roll in the shot sleeve before you have evacuated all the air the only other possibility is contaminated base material

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

DaveM wrote:
Gazoo wrote:

Although the word forged is used in the name, if you read up on the actual process SSF...it's more like an injection molding process.
But certainly not was is known as actual forging process, where the liquified material is poured into a die, and pressure is applied to the outside of the die, compressing the material inside.

.....But you are also right with steering components, some are cold forged.

What is this cold forging nonsense that you speak of. Where is the liquefied material man?

Injection casting as well as semi solid the dies only purpose is the shape of the part and the machine or press contains the material you are injecting all the force is applied directly to the material itself the ford auto transmission that went into the crown vicks Run a 70 pound shot on a 3500 ton machine shot speed starts at around 10 " per second and finish at 1500 at which time when the speed drops because its packed the die you intensify the pressure 2 to 3 times what your systems running. this is when it gets interesting if for some reason you loose lock on the die Mag is just plain deadly at this point.

Just for comparison if you were running a 70 pound part liquid semi solid would require the same force to run something around 20 to 25 pounds

-- Edited by slim on Saturday 29th of March 2014 08:53:23 PM