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Post Info TOPIC: Hi all I need advice on building a stronger 225


LONG POINT, ONT

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Hi all I need advice on building a stronger 225
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Hi all, I have a 82 dodge d100 short box in great shape, it has a tired 225 with a granny 4speed tranny. What I would like to do is build a 225 with a few more horses and keep the tranny but change the rear gears from 3:55 to something a little more cruisable.  At 100kms every thing seems busy.  Thanks Rick.   



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Ric
DJD


SCARBOROUGH, ONT

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www.google.com/search

click on the top right pic
that will take you to a thread on turbododge.com

I thought of that thread right off haveing seen it before -I'm a moderator over there if you need any help pokeing around

 

a swap to the 4 speed overdrive trans might help

there was a mid 70's nos dodge truck grille on ebay not long ago - might still be there

it was army truck green though



-- Edited by DJD on Tuesday 10th of June 2014 10:09:47 PM



-- Edited by DJD on Tuesday 10th of June 2014 10:12:20 PM

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TORONTO, ONT

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Rebuild the motor, with a little compression, clean up the head, put a a super six intake and carb on it, and headers with a good exhaust. Then swap out the granny four speed, put in a 833OD and a 4.10 year gear.

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NORTH BAY, ONT

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Google "SLANT SIX .ORG" LOTs of info there.

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ONTARIO

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Slant sixes were not a high revving engine, so a gear change is something I would consider carefully.

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ONTARIO

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EFI and boostbiggrin



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PORT HOPE, ONT

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Just ask Don on this site .He has bin working on them forever and is willing to share .Check out his posts. Ed



-- Edited by flatblack55delivery on Thursday 12th of June 2014 07:45:14 PM

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LONG POINT, ONT

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Thanks all for the advice.


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Ric


DUNDAS, ONT

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Ask Don

http://ontariorodders.activeboard.com/t57391982/six-tunnel-ram-now-up-and-running-on-the-senior-dragster/



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FOXBORO, ONT

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RacerRick wrote:

Rebuild the motor, with a little compression, clean up the head, put a a super six intake and carb on it, and headers with a good exhaust. Then swap out the granny four speed, put in a 833OD and a 4.10 year gear.


 i gotta ask rick, why the 4:10's? if he figures its busy now with the 3:55's wouldn't putting in the o/d make things more drive able. to me that is a big spread. i don't know about the 833o/d tranny ratio's but it has me wondering with that jump. i am only asking cause i don't know, is all.



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DJD


SCARBOROUGH, ONT

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I always thought six cylinder dodge trucks got a decient gear to start with as the 360 swap a buddy and I did in one moved a lot better in the truck than the cordoba it came outta

355 would be a pretty decient gear - I'd think the a833 od trans would only make it better

and you can have an aluminum case to boot



-- Edited by DJD on Saturday 14th of June 2014 04:35:40 AM

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COBOURG, ONT

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shag766 wrote:
RacerRick wrote:

Rebuild the motor, with a little compression, clean up the head, put a a super six intake and carb on it, and headers with a good exhaust. Then swap out the granny four speed, put in a 833OD and a 4.10 year gear.


 i gotta ask rick, why the 4:10's? if he figures its busy now with the 3:55's wouldn't putting in the o/d make things more drive able. to me that is a big spread. i don't know about the 833o/d tranny ratio's but it has me wondering with that jump. i am only asking cause i don't know, is all.


 In the 833 I have , 3rd is 1:1 and the OD is 0.73



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FOXBORO, ONT

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scruffre wrote:
shag766 wrote:
RacerRick wrote:

Rebuild the motor, with a little compression, clean up the head, put a a super six intake and carb on it, and headers with a good exhaust. Then swap out the granny four speed, put in a 833OD and a 4.10 year gear.


 i gotta ask rick, why the 4:10's? if he figures its busy now with the 3:55's wouldn't putting in the o/d make things more drive able. to me that is a big spread. i don't know about the 833o/d tranny ratio's but it has me wondering with that jump. i am only asking cause i don't know, is all.


 In the 833 I have , 3rd is 1:1 and the OD is 0.73


 me to on that number roughly,  0.73, on both my o/d's with 15" wheels. 60 mph at 21-2300rpm. tko trans-2100, 200r trans-2300. both with 3:90's rears.



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SCARBOROUGH, ONT

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thinking maybe the 410 would make what really is a 3 spd + o-d drive / feel more like a close ratio trans - the three gears are deffinately gonna be wider than a 4 gear trans

looking at those rpm's vs speed & I'd have to think my 383 for < that would barely be turning with the 323 gear that's in it

- but I have to wonder what size tire ?



-- Edited by DJD on Sunday 15th of June 2014 06:33:29 AM

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Don


PRINCE EDWARD COUNTY

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Well this is slant six central. Are you redoing the motor or just rubbing on it in the truck? Re the 410s, I only use 391 even in my dragster so I wouldn't push that too far. Engines have a lot of torque by virtue of the huge stroke. They will also handle a good overbore. Heads can be planed up to .100" I usually do mine .070" leaving me some service room. I use always a NOS steel gasket. (Roblins or Minakers has them in stock) There was a windage tray available years ago. I have one in my rail. Where you could find one now I don't know but one could just make it too. Cams are still available although Mine are are done to my specs for racing. Cylinder heads can stand a lot of port work. Mike will cut you a set of header flanges in a heartbeat.
I have also turboed a slant six and that worked very well. I believe your engine should be Hydraulic lifters. Not a problem. I have two used street cams for that set up and BTW I run hydraulic cams anytime I am running an engine under 7000 rpm say 6800 and down because they make more power for the same spec. Settle down boys. I know what I am talking about. (The blue rail runs a custom made hydraulic) You can raise the valve size fairly easily. Nothing wrong with the factory super six two barrel manifold. I would run a bigger carb though, probably a Rochestor from a 350 Two barrel chev which is a very good carb with decent flow. The Offy 4 barrel is easy to find but the carb needs to be turned on them as in stock form it has poor distribution. I have run them in street use with a Holley two barrel which works very well and just requires a 2 to 4 barrel adapter upside down. There are some ponies to be found in a distributor rework as well. Great engine to run and a lot of fun to play with. $$ spent is up to you. You can go hi Dollar or low buck well done, performance will be not that different. There are some other manifold options too as the Aussies still make a lot of stuff for these engine. Some of their stuff is wonderful. I never feel disadvantaged at the track running the slant six , nor did I on the street when we had the 66 cuda with a done slant six. An old trick short of headers was to run a big block exhaust pipe and muffler as the flange fits and the hole in the stock exhaust manifold is huge anyway.
I you need any other info just ask.
don



-- Edited by Don on Sunday 15th of June 2014 07:22:50 AM



-- Edited by Don on Sunday 15th of June 2014 07:25:52 AM

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NORTH BAY, ONT

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Good post Don.

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LONG POINT, ONT

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Thanks Don, many options to consider. if you don't mind I will flip you a few questions in the very near future. Thanks again. Rick


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BADEN, ONT

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Don has pretty much touched on everything, depends on how far you want to go.
Here's my old slant 6, a '75 with hydraulic lifters and stock bore 225ci and stock cam. I put the 4bbl intake and header on it, with the stock 904 trans. and 7 1/4" rear (Ratio???).
Like Don mentioned, the carb was a B atch to tune, but once I hit the sweet spot.


'75 Dart Swinger.jpg

 

'75 Dart Swinger 2.jpg

 

No use of brakes in these pics. You can see the nose is up. Cool fall air did help it some.



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TORONTO, ONT

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4.10's were factory on a lot of the /6 833OD pickups. I had one with 3.55's and one with 4.10's. The 4.10 one was much nicer to drive.

Remember that they have a 235/75R15 tire which is about 30 inches tall, weigh 5000+lbs, and the 833OD has a .73 overdrive which turns the 4.10 into a 3.00:1. RPM at 100kph is about 2100rpm with this combo. Any less and you will start lugging the motor in a vehicle this size.

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COBOURG, ONT

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the leaning tower of power is as good as it gets, they are built with forged internals from the factory. when you say strength you mean durability or horsepower/torque?  get as much fuel into that motor as you can, consider forced induction to overcome flow limitations. 



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Don


PRINCE EDWARD COUNTY

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And speaking of flow limitations. I took a head and put it on the sacrificial bench with only one thing in mind. Remove the limitations regardless of the consequences. Somehow I never hit water. Valve guides were reduced to 312 and 343. The 343 used necked stem valves so exposed stem was only 312 anyway. Guide bosses were completely removed. Intake port roofs were raised New guides were made in house and while providing almost the same support were a mere shadow of the originals. The whole deal was on the old HAMB but I forget the thread. I have been running the head for a couple of years now. I am quite happy with it. However a "hair dryer" as you mentioned will also wake one of these motors up big time. Using a complete turbo set up from a Buick GN would produce similar results since both engines are the same size. An old carbed version would be  easiest however the injected deal would work too. The computer doesn't care it is a straight six vrs a V6.
don



-- Edited by Don on Tuesday 17th of June 2014 08:40:41 PM

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BADEN, ONT

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Just out of curiosity Don, did you flow test the head, as in how many CC's ?
I've always liked those slants, tough, reliable, and good fuel economy.




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PRINCE EDWARD COUNTY

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No, My flow bench was sold in the package with all my auto machine shop equipment when I retired. However one must remember that the flow bench only measures flow, it doesn't do the porting. After almost 15+ years using it you get to understand what does and doesn't work. At first when you start using it it is painful as what appears pretty does not always flow well. Not much happens on the floor and playing with that can kill flow because the air doesn't make the turn on the short side or port floor side and runs into the air from the top or roof side setting up turbulence. Once turbulence starts flow drops like a rock. Most of the ponies in the head other then that are hiding in the valve bowl. The straighter it is under the bowl and the deeper it is straight the more the port flows till max size is reached. Valve window in sq inches should match to some degree port area. I usually make paper patterns of valve window (lift and seat circumference) and compare them to the port  but not at the flange where it is often on an angle which is irrelevant but up in the port where the actual size can be measured.  Then I compare the two in sq inches. Valve guide bosses in some heads are a horrible obstruction. The slant six heads are really bad there as are the poly 313/318 heads. Worst I have ever seen are the stge 6 mopar aluminum heads.  

I made a special tool for them (stge6) to reduce the valve guide boss to valve guide Od . I used to rework the bosses in the slant six heads but now I just bore the guides out for SBI cast iron replacements and grind the boss right out of the port . Then I tool the replacement guide insert in the lathe tapering the end so it just reaches the original stock height or nearly so but is so much less of an obstruction it is unbelievable. I cool it lube it and insert it from the spring side driving it to its proper location.  Working on the premiss that a straight round pipe would have the best flow I do everything to come closer to that as possible. Over the last 40 Plus years doing cylinder heads I have had the oppourtunity to look inside a few really good ones both from the performance industry and exotic engines like Lotus Jag etc etc. I discovered the principles are universal. deep straight valve bowl with a slight but not excessive taper to the valve seat and high port roof. In the absence of a flow bench a string going down the valve guide and out the port blown by the air from you porting grinders fan will give you a pretty good idea if the port is turbulent or not. On this head I was able to blow the string almost 2 feet out straight and it stayed realatively stable with only a slight slow yaw using the fan from my rotozip which is my porting tool of choice blowing gently into the port. The stock unmodified port wasn't even close. There is also a large discrepancy between flow benches even same model same manufacturer. trick is to do all flow bench testing on the same singe bench so you know baseline and gains (or losses) I went a step further doing them all if possible after dusk in cool similar air . A bad or turbulent port can really make a howl while a good smooth flowing port is spookily quiet. Not all companies selling ported heads do any testing I once had a set of MP Direct connection heads given to me. I tested them against stockers and pretty as the were they flowed only 67% of what stocker flowed. What did I do with them? I sold them to a competitor who knew I was an idiot and enjoyed showing him my taillights till he figured out I might actually have told him the truth. These heads were ported by a famous head shop (B&B are their initials) Sometimes in porting knowing what NOT to do is the biggest secret. I must say though by far the biggest advantage of using a flow bench was establishing max lift for the camshaft using the flow figures. There are many ways to measure flow. You can buy or build a real flow bench or a leaf blower with an manometer and a proper bore sized tube will show you improvements easily .As flow goes up vacuum or neg pressure drops. If you establish a baseline reference point it will get the job done despite the fact you wont have figures you can see if you are improving or not.

Recently I have been thinking of a simple mechanical flow bench and if I get bored may make it just for fun to see how practical it is. Once while in Germany I had occasion to have an engine discussion with a formula one engine design engineer for one of the big Germany companies.  He was surprised to hear about flow benches which surprised me. My wife accidently recorded the whole conversation as she was filming the passing scenery while the discussion was going on. He also much to my shock had a copy of my book he said in his office. I didn't know what he did when I met him but he told me near the end of our conversation that is on the video tape she made. He is now married to a distant cousin there and I may get to see him again next month. Back then he was just "the boyfriend" Still flow benches are nice and a great teaching tool however not everyone learns. Some folks don't change what or how they do it even when the figures tell them different. I remember for me it was a heartbreaking experience when I started using my bench. The relearning curve was steep, cruel  and unforgiving.  While  great tool if used right it is obvious that good results can also be had without them. BTW Warren Johnson warned once in one of his National Dragster tech articles about racing flow benches instead of looking for gains.  

don 



-- Edited by Don on Wednesday 18th of June 2014 08:51:19 AM

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