this might be off topic a little but I worked on a story about a cat converter that will almost get rid of
all the harmful gasses from your tailpipe.
check out
http://www.gesi.us/
this is no gimmick and i do not work for this guy I work for a science show called Daily Planet and we did a story on this cat and its the real deal.
and the best part it actually increased HP and Torque.
Now this is not for everybody, just putting the info out there you guys and gals make your own call

-- Edited by poncho62 on Tuesday 14th of February 2012 07:37:46 PM

Hey Mike funny you should mention that. I just had a car done at CTC here in Midland and all they used was the exhaust probes no Dyno. I thought it was strange at the time but know I think I know why.

I would suggest that the regulations all be aligned at minimum. If 1987 cars and earlier are exempt from the E testing then wouldn't it make sense to tie the engine pollution control equipment to that date as well ?

 

That would be an alternative, the way I read the act is that "Hot Rods" need to comply with 1980 standards. Perhaps if a suspecting vehicle was required to go to an actual test centre then be subject to the same regs as all other vehciles including the conditional pass rule and given a reasonable time to conform, 30 or 60 days. That would be progressive law enforcement not refressive like we have now.

The reason they want to see all the original smog equipment on there is due to the fact the drive test itself is not perfect. It only has to pass for 30 seconds at 40kmh and 20 seconds for idle. To properly etest a car takes about 2 days worth of all different kinds of driving. That's what the automakers have to do. That's why the MOE visual. All the smog equipment is to keep the air clean all the time. Drive clean test checks the gas cap too. 20% of hydro carbon emissions are from fuel vaporizing in the tank. That's why we have sealed gas caps and evap systems on cars to capture the vapors.
When I repair a car according to drive clean I have to use the original systems the OEM uses to fix the car. EG: an old truck with no convertor fails its etest I can't put a convertor on to make it pass. When parts are obsolete, you must find aftermarket or used or fix what you have. The other side is if Joe driver wants to fix his car to make it pass, he can do it any way he likes because I don't do a visual inspection during an etest.
Do I agree with all the nonsense? No. I would like to see Hot Rods exempt completely. Motorcycles are, lots of Harleys will make your eyes water if your to close to long.
Unfortunately bureaucrats don't fix cars or they might understand the nonsense they create.

89lxstanger wrote:

---

i personally am fed up with the 2 year itch on my mustang i took it off the road years back and it sits covered in **** in my storage container in the back yard, got fed up with the fear of failure again.....when the econoline hits the streets with the 94 mark 8 motor in it, it will be fully legit to a mark 8 and pass a valid etest of wich i intened to keep the test sheet in the glove box for just such an occasion i know alot of people dont have the means to go through it all, but i will put more than 40 000km a year on this thing i dont need any more BULL ****, the older i get the more impatient i get with our stupid ontario government

---

 It isn't ALL of Ontario...it's generally the South. Up here in Sudbury, we don't have "Smog Police". Laws are there, but not enforced. I drive my Cutlass around with the headers un-corked more often than not. Never any issues up here it seems.

 

Not only does this cat reduce emissions by up to 99% it is from Whitby

i know its not all of ontario, niagara is as bad at the GTA so im not takin any chances.....

Maybe That would be a good topic kind of a how to make em run and still be legal. The guys who know could help the guys who need to know.Could save us a lot of money and grief. Ed

-- Edited by poncho62 on Friday 17th of February 2012 04:11:27 PM

Great GMC,, I like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was fined in Whitby on my way to work last may,no cats,they claimed they could pull the plates and have the vehicle towed (76 chev pu,chopped lowered and a little noisey)let me off with one $365 ticket on 3 infractions,2 cats and charcoal can,they were in an MOE car,not sure they had the equipment to do a roadside test,they just needed to see the parts installed.

Here was my email conversations with the MOE.

Question:

Hello Joe, Thank you for contacting Ontario's Drive Clean. My name is Warren and I will try to answer your question. In your message you've asked: Does the MOE or MTO have information on pre 1988 vehicle emission requirements regarding the use of late model engines in pre 1988 vehicles. Can you please direct me to the proper ministry or department that deals with this matter.

Answer:

 These requirements are identified in Ontario Regulation 361/98 Motor Vehicles, under the Environmental Protection  Act.  Section 4 of the regulation deals with Emission Control Equipment for Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars and Hot Rods:
    4.  (1)  A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor.  O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.
    (2)  A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor.  O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3. The regulation and the definitions of kit cars, rebuilt cars and hot rods, can be viewed on the province's eLaws site at: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_980361_e.htm All vehicles on Ontario’s highways – whether registered in Ontario or from out-of-province – are subject to the provincial Environmental Protection Act (EPA).  The act prohibits excessive visible exhaust emissions and the alteration or removal of emissions control equipment.  This applies to vehicles even if they have passed a Drive Clean test. If you need further assistance you can reply to this email or call us directly. Thank you for contacting Ontario's Drive clean program.Regards,
Customer Service Representative
Ontario Drive Clean Program
1-888-758-2999
Out-of-province callers please call 905-440-7482 (Charges will be assumed by caller.)

Question:

Warren, Thank You very much for the Information. I visit several car forums and this topic is being discussed as most people are confused as to the MOE rules. 
So to clarify. (Examples)
1 - If a newer late model engine (say a 2009 LS engine) is installed in a pre 1988 vehicle, it must have all the emission controls that came with that engine?
 
2 - If a pre 1988 vehicle has an engine swap with a same year engine, the new engine must be as emission efficient as the original and have all the emission equipment that the car came with?
 
So here is the senario that most people are concerned and confused about in the "Hot Rod" sector. As an example, say a person installs a year appropriate crate engine V8 into say a 1966 car that originally came with a 6 cylinder. Do they follow the car year senario or the engine senario. What exactly does the MOE look for when they inspect the vehicle. People in the hobby want to comply but are confused as to how the process and requirements are. Can you please clarify further with examples. I would like to post these findings so that others can have a clear idea of what they need to do. I appreciate any and all information that you can provide.

Answer:

Hello Joe, Thank you for contacting Ontario's Drive Clean. My name is Warren and I will try to answer your question. We will not interpret the regulation for you. You should seek legal advice from your own lawyer to assist in interpreting the regulation. The onus is on those who make the changes to defend themselves if charges are laid.If you need further assistance you can reply to this email or call us directly. Thank you for contacting Ontario's Drive clean program.Regards,
Customer Service Representative
Ontario Drive Clean Program
1-888-758-2999
Out-of-province callers please call 905-440-7482 (Charges will be assumed by caller.)

My Responce:

You Won't Interpret the Regulation or you don't have a clue how to interpret the regulation? If the MOE doesn't know, then how are lay people supposed to know? Your answer is unsatisfactory. Please direct my concerns to someone who is able to provide an answer.

To date, I have never received a reply.Watch your backside out there. In this case, you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

 

 

So who pays the fine if the lawyer interprets wrong? We need a hot rod lawyer any one know one. It would be fun to have a lawyer request the legal wording regarding your questions of the Envirofacts from these fools.

TheOrnge dept got taken down and and maybe its time for othersto have to answer maybe you could email these questions and answers to the Toronto Stars Saturday wheels section they have a section concerning automotive law.I know the wheels section is not very hot rod friendly but the reporter Jill MacIntosh is an old rodder from back in the day perhaps she or the auto lawyer I think hs name is Erick Law could shed some light on this issue. If not I might suggest you submit a letter to the wheels editor maybe using the hook of performance vehicle harrasment is your type next or the old waste of tax payer money angle.Might be worth a try. Ed

stevorunner wrote:

---

this might be off topic a little but I worked on a story about a cat converter that will almost get rid of
all the harmful gasses from your tailpipe.
check out
http://www.gesi.us/
this is no gimmick and i do not work for this guy I work for a science show called Daily Planet and we did a story on this cat and its the real deal.
and the best part it actually increased HP and Torque.
Now this is not for everybody, just putting the info out there you guys and gals make your own call

-- Edited by poncho62 on Tuesday 14th of February 2012 07:37:46 PM

---

 I was reading the info on this new cat converter if it removes 99% of the pollutants by it self would all the rest of the requirements become redundant if the car passes the E test without them. New technology over riding old or making the old technology obsolete.  

-- Edited by workin class on Sunday 19th of February 2012 07:11:08 PM

I don'trecall my 86 SS having an AIR system but here's the real problem, the systems vary from model to model so much. I had headers with fittings for AIR for both my 75 Monza and 81 X11 so headers can be compliant.

Reading above using the block casting as a reference is completely flawed since the block might be the only part used to rebuild to exact specs other wise.  This legisaltion is very poor, creates more questions than answers that's for sure.  

-- Edited by RAT BOY on Sunday 19th of February 2012 07:52:47 PM

Adslow65 wrote:

---

Wow thanks Warren for all your help!

My favorite response "We will not interpret the regulation for you"....

In other words "We make up the regulations as we go along, if you get fined - too bad, we've made the rules so nobody understands them"

Just proves how stupid it all is by his response!!

---

 or....."We will get your money, we don't care how"

Getting so I hate government more and more........

poncho62 wrote:

---

Adslow65 wrote:

---

Wow thanks Warren for all your help!

My favorite response "We will not interpret the regulation for you"....

In other words "We make up the regulations as we go along, if you get fined - too bad, we've made the rules so nobody understands them"

Just proves how stupid it all is by his response!!

---

 or....."We will get your money, we don't care how"

Getting so I hate government more and more........

It's okay they hate us too. We just get to pay them to hate us.

They have forgotten who works for whom... The US had a little spat about 200 years ago to straighten out that problem. We are living in a "taxation without representation"  state up here now. No wonder the US wanted right to bear arms. We're just sheep led to slaughter.

 

Sorry I'm on a rant!

 

 

---

 

flatduck wrote:

---

after reading the post i have a high milleage and i know for a fact it s been abuse but still run in my 71 Nova the motor came of a 1970 car ..............but i was going to use another 350 i have on the stand which been rebuild but have low milles but is from the 80 s now i m really wonderinggggggggggg what to use.................i only plan on using only the block since i have all the rest brand new aluminium heads and intake

---

 Well from what i've been told & reading the MOE rules, I'd say your 80's block will have to have all the emm. "CRAP" that was on the 80's engine, for whatever it came out of, Cats. Egr, charcoal cannister etc. Just an aside< a fellow in Port Perry had the Moe come out to his place & check 2 of his vehicles. [1] is a 28 ford A panel truck[under construction] with all 90's Vette d/line & he has transferred all the emm. stuff onto it. They said 'NO Problem here" then he show"d them his 86 Chevy 1/2 ton {Indy pace truck] they liked the truck & restoration but when they saw the "intake & headers"  in the engine & they said " OH OH" get caught driving this & your BUSTED!!! Dual exhaust & no Cats, no EGR & What ever else your missing!!!!! Said the MOE guys were OK about talking with him about the situation, but were quite "firm" on the regulations & said it's up to the owner to know whats what on the reg's.

Some 69 GMs had the air pump, my 70 Chevelle didnt....seemed like it was hit and miss around then.....Cats came in 75.......

the new gesi Cat may make all other requirements redundant according to how I read it can some one please re read there info. They say there equipment works on older model muscle cars to make them Environmental compliant.

The enforcement people are still going to go by the current written law, period, no mater what we add on or have tested whether required or not . Until the written laws change, possibly next year, we still need to dance to their tune.....
......Joe, What a lame A$$ answer from our "Government Experts". Huge disappointment again.

Interesting reading... The Government obviously does not know, how much money is spent on the car hobby... They will miss us, when we are gone