Just pursuing this thought TIME TRAVELLER on a "clean" Drive Clean test. Can you elaborate on your idea. I am just trying to understand your concept.

Are you saying that if a vehcile gets checked and is missing a Catalytic converter , AIR pump , Charcoal Cannister, PVC, and thermatic air cleaner, rather than getting fined for all these missing components on the spot the vehicle could alternatively be required to take a Drive Clean test and if it successfully passed the standards for it's year of manuafacture no fines or charges would be laid?

I’m not suggesting that the emission equipment doesn’t do the job – I know better than that. However, we’re talking about some process that can easily be applied to a very limited number of vehicles here, not the millions of “normal” vehicles for the general population. For example, one enforcement option during these roadside blitzes could be a simple two-speed idle test before a ticket is issued. While not as thorough as the dyno test at a Drive Clean test centre (it only tests for only tests for carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons, not for nitrogen oxides), it would still be a good indication of a vehicle’s basic cleanliness and would satisfy the fundamental mandate of MOE’s program ie: cleaner air. If the vehicle passed the two speed test, then maybe – just maybe – the requirement for all the other bits and pieces could be waived. If it doesn’t pass, then “here’s your ticket”. This would require minimal equipment on MOE's part (no dyno required) and is still a valid test method since it’s still used at Drive Clean facilities for vehicles that can’t be run on the dyno – eg: AWD. Still dreamin’…..

RAT BOY wrote:

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Give owners say 60 days to comply before charges or temporary suspension of vehicle permit. At least that way the Government would be seen as working with the hobby rather than just ramping up revenue collection.

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 I think this would be a more realistic approach... and much more "fair" instead of just laying on the tickets! (as a money grab) And yes maybe then they would be seen as working with the hobby rather than against it!

Obsolete and unrepiarable and unobtainable equipment will always be an issue. Anybody got an AIR & EGR  for a 1969 427?

-- Edited by RAT BOY on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 11:22:29 PM

Hey guys we are dealing with the government here ,common sense and fair don't matter ,results and cash are the only priorities.In my town the Ontario Fire Marshell is enforcing all the rules in the book ,calling for tens of thousands of dollars of up grades to buildings ,now.The results are business closings and a downtown area where people are being evicted from there homes because the building owners can't react fast enough in these times.The MOE is suppost to check rivers for polution and find the source,they are in charge of insuring big business doesn't polute .Who do you think is the easier target, big business or some dude kruzzin down the road in his non compliant hot rod.We are the current revinue stream cause if they(MOE)go after big poluters it might cost jobs,and think about how that would look in the morning paper.Optics are everything to politicans it doesn't matter if they don't do the right thing just as long as it looks like they are doing something.Untill they find an easyer victim we are the current target and that is the tale sad but true.Maybe the SVA can help or maybe they have there own agenda who knows ,like the man said write your local MPP and complain to him ,they are the ones who can do something. Ed

I should have looked before asking, this stuff is easy to locate, hard to pay for but easy to find.

Click here

 

 

For the GM guys, this site is interesting and has alot of original info.

http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/

Click on Vehicle Information Kits in the bottom right corner of the home page.

are you sure they weren't on laughing gas when they pulled you over?

Thanks Pete not the news we wanted but at least we know where we stand .I bet the price for pre 72 blocks just went thru the roof. Ed

This is going to be interesting ... I have a '95 TBI 350 (from a truck) and I have installed a factory GM carb intake (from an '87 Monte SS). If I install this engine in an '81 Regal and include the EGR, cats, evap canister, etc ... basically all the emission stuff from the '81 Regal, will it pass scrutiny? I don't know if they had more emission stuff on a '95 than they had on an '81, and I also don't know if they had different emission stuff on a fuelie than on a carbed engine. I am also wondering if "they" (the MOE street people) will even have the correct answers. I am thinking they will first do a visual check ... see all the emission stuff (from '81) is still on the car and not need or bother to check the engine numbers.

I think todays task will be to drag one of my old blocks out of the shed and start prepping it for a build ...

Rusty Nuts wrote:

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This is going to be interesting ... I have a '95 TBI 350 (from a truck) and I have installed a factory GM carb intake (from an '87 Monte SS). If I install this engine in an '81 Regal and include the EGR, cats, evap canister, etc ... basically all the emission stuff from the '81 Regal, will it pass scrutiny? I don't know if they had more emission stuff on a '95 than they had on an '81, and I also don't know if they had different emission stuff on a fuelie than on a carbed engine. I am also wondering if "they" (the MOE street people) will even have the correct answers. I am thinking they will first do a visual check ... see all the emission stuff (from '81) is still on the car and not need or bother to check the engine numbers.

I think todays task will be to drag one of my old blocks out of the shed and start prepping it for a build ...

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 If you car was a V8 before and you still have all the goods, they won't bother you.

123pugsy wrote:

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Rusty Nuts wrote:

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This is going to be interesting ... I have a '95 TBI 350 (from a truck) and I have installed a factory GM carb intake (from an '87 Monte SS). If I install this engine in an '81 Regal and include the EGR, cats, evap canister, etc ... basically all the emission stuff from the '81 Regal, will it pass scrutiny? I don't know if they had more emission stuff on a '95 than they had on an '81, and I also don't know if they had different emission stuff on a fuelie than on a carbed engine. I am also wondering if "they" (the MOE street people) will even have the correct answers. I am thinking they will first do a visual check ... see all the emission stuff (from '81) is still on the car and not need or bother to check the engine numbers.

I think todays task will be to drag one of my old blocks out of the shed and start prepping it for a build ...

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 If you car was a V8 before and you still have all the goods, they won't bother you.

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 That's an interesting take ... the Regal is actually a 6 cyl car, I intend to swap all the V8 stuff from a Cutlass (including all the emission stuff) and install the '95 350.  Just curious, why do you think it matters whether the car was an original V8?  I doubt very much that the roadside clowns will have access to info showing the car "should" have a 6cyl.  Sure hope you're wrong :)

123pugsy wrote:

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dualquadpete wrote:

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Just got a letter from my MPP & the copy of the letter is from Min. of Enviroment & in a nut shell, they are going to write the emm. section in "laymens terms" & also states in letter that if replacement engine is newer than car, then it must have all emm. equipt. for the yr. of engine!!! Crate engines included, & as stated b-4, on GM crate engines they have a disclaimer that says not street legal in all area's & "for off road use only" So they aren't backing off on this, CASH COW??? you bet!!!!!!

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 I better start saving my nickels for all the fines I'm gonna get. I figure 6 years before my car's done at 50 cents a week.......

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 SIX YEARS ?????    Get off the computer and get out in the garage ... holy crap, six years is too long to wait for anything.

poncho62 wrote:

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Just my opinion, but I dont think that the cops are going to check date codes on the side of the road, the MOT might, but how often is that going to happen?...I have a 76 engine in my 51 Ford, looks just like a 69 engine. Any cop is going to likely believe me when I say its a 69, if he even bothers to ask

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 they knew their stuff when they pulled my friend with the 52 gmc over had the books and went by casting numbers and date codes. used mirror to get to the numbers.

what matter is what the car could have come with, if its a v6 but also came with a v8, normal emmision standards stil apply, but for example, you put a 6.2 diesel engine in that camero, thats a motor the car would have never came with.  i wonder if putting a 4.3 v6 would matter, although a camero never came with a 4.3, its is a v6 still.  pretty grey area of which they make the rules up as they go.

and to think...i just sold my fresh 327.


Dammit.

At the end of the day we are involved in a hobby for our enjoyment and the public's. It is beyond comprehension why the government officals seem so bent on destroying a hobby.

I don't see anybody being arrested at the quilting club, afterall a good set of knitting needles is a serious weapon I am sure capable of ending a life.

I just checked my block and it is either 1968 truck or Hi performance for that year. used from 1968 to mid 70's. In talking to an older GM mechanic there were no emmissions other than pcv valve on this engine in Canada until mid 70's it was also the first year for the large journal cast crank. It was also the first year for the new location of the oil fill tube. Both of my small blocks are good to go. Now here is a thought I bet the old 283 4bbl intakes have just gone up in price...lol 

Hywayhauler ... I'm not so sure you're correct. I know someone in Sault Ste Marie Ontario who used to own a road-race 1999 Mustang (supercharged) that was plated and driven on the street occasionally (he used to race it in Targa Newfoundland so it needed to be plated). Car had no emissions stuff on it. He is good friends with some of the local cops and (he told me personally) they (the cops) would warn him not to bring out his car (flashy paint, full cage, stickers etc) when the emissions guys hit town. Apparently they (sniffer dudes) set up shop for a couple of days (maybe more) and do checks on suspect vehicles (visual checks and sniff tests if they think it needs it). From what I understand, this happened at least once a year.

I doubt very much they skip Sudbury on the way to the Soo (assuming they are heading to the Soo from the GTA).

123pugsy wrote:

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I think the letter should say something about the MOE laws should have an exemption for cars that use these newer engines and can still pass the drive clean test. This is a much better thing than having parts on a hot rod that may or may not even function. The MOE guys don't care if these parts actually work, they just want to write up fines when they don't see them attached to the motor.

I for one will be running sequential fuel injection on a 1998 BBC and you can bet that it will pass drive clean. Only problem is that I was looking at pics of my motor from when I bought it and it had an EGR valve on it. My aftermarket intake can not take an egr valve. If I'm not mistaken, I believe newer motors don't even run these. If this is the case, the laws requiring the use of outdated technology are totally whacked.

Any of that make sense?

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Here is the big problem. If a vehicle is not in the data base it cannot legally be tested. Testing a vehicle using another vehicle's information is against the law.

Legally you cannot prove that an older car would pass the drive cycle for a later model. The law should have provisions for older vehicles to meet newer specs and still be legal.

The problem is that the people enforcing the laws are clueless as to the technicalities of the laws they were hired to uphold. They are told that hot rodders are the big problem, and that we are who they should focus on. They are just doing what they have been told to do.

We need to inform our MPP's of our situation and try to come to an agreement as to how we can co-exist peacefully. This may mean having to meet pollution standards for a certain year of vehicle, for the MOE to leave us alone. 

Would anyone care if we had to meet a certain spec and  run a hot rod plate with a Drive Clean sticker for them to stop targeting us?

I would be happy to if it meant we could cruise peacefully. 

that also means if you want to buy a 2013 Camaro in let say 2017 when it s a used car you ll have to get it all check to see if the guy didn t buy a 2015 block to replace the blown engine

First, as annoying as the Provincial Regs are and the minions that are enforcing them with exuberance are, remember that there are FEDERAL standards and regs that they will switch to when we thwart them.

I do NOT have a crate motor or a Target or target master engine, but someone who does have one, should check the codes and see what those engines really are coded as.

Ideally, get a written note, on dealership letterhead, that a year specific engine for your car is not available and that the engine you purchased is a recommended replacement for your vehicle. That's not a free pass but it will begin to get the ball back into MOE's court.

Check the GM Performance Parts catalogue. See the recommendations they list. ZZ or LS engine for a 40 Ford Street Rod? If GM can list that, then why are we wrong? A good lawyer will show that "for off road use only" doesn't wash when GM knows where that engine is going.

If you are running an engine that is coded as requiring emissions equipment either comply OR obliterate the code. A welder guy will be better able to speak to this, but, I believe it's called NI-ROD. If your casting number falls into the wrong era remove it. "I don't know, it came that way from the rebuilder". I know of zero rebuilders that sell you an engine with e-stuff, or worry about what you are putting it in. If ANYONE got a written notice that you could NOT use someone's rebuilt engine in your vehicle please scan and post that notice.
That would mean that you purchased an engine for off-road use only. Same Machine shop that tells you that engine was not built for off road use?, because that's abuse?

If the same enforcement officer threatens you, or repeatedly pulls you over but is unable to convict you in court, that is Harassment and there is a path for that. If he continually pulls you over even after you repair car that is harassment.

Remember enforcement officers in Ontario are taught that EVERY vehicle built since 1973 has a catalytic convertor. We know that is not true. I have owned several. Look in your vehicle's exhaust catalogue listing.

A friend of my son purchased a '79 Malibu from the RCMP. Malibu never had Catalytic convertor from factory (Enforcement Fleet). He was pulled over and ticketed for operating that vehicle without c/c. Unfortunately, he paid it instead of fighting it. Sold Malibu and purchased some European sedan, but was never pulled over again. European sedan, ooooh, that's fun!

Fight EVERY ticket! A buddy got charged for operating a 80 Camaro w/o cat/conv. 6 trips to court (appeals) before we won. The last time we got a JUDGE who new more about the emissions laws than the previous J.P.s. He knew emissions tickets/cases needed to be in Emissions court NOT traffic court. Fight every ticket!
Tickets have been written with no legal grounds for those tickets. If you pay one you just plead guilty to being foolish.

Are you sure you want to put your car in a parade or show for any level of Government? "We're gonna screw you into the ground, but, can you bring your old car out for us at the annual Liberal picnic?" "We need some cars for the rally/commercial/fund raiser."

One more thing, the Liberals DO NOT care how many people they put out of work. They do not care how many businesses they close. They do not care how many Canadians declare bankruptcy. They need more tax money (from scrapping your old car and purchasing a new one and from the high price of gasoline) to buy more votes from new and young Canadians, as well as the welfare moms.
Remember common sense has no place in court or government. McGuinty is the poster boy for that. Hey, If no-one voted Liberal, how did they get in?

Also remember those Gov't Minions can read this blog too!

We are now into April. I read somewhere in an earlier post that the MOE was hoping to have more info out by the end of March regarding what exactly is required as far as emission equipment when a later engine is installed in an earlier car.

I am in the process of adding cats, egr, and charcoal can/sealed filler neck (already have pcv) ... wondering if that will be enough ('83 carbed 305 in a mid-thirties GM coupe).

Interestingly, if the installation of these parts is not enough to pacify the MOE cops (and I get ticketed), I can and WILL remove all of the emission stuff (except for the pcv) and install a '69 engine in order to eliminate the need to comply. Which makes more sense as far as the environment is concerned ... cats, egr, pcv, and charcoal can/sealed tank and fail or just a pcv (and earlier engine) and pass?

I have a '95 350 (factory roller cam engine) that originally came with TBI ... I have installed a carbed intake (engine is still on stand in garage). It would be nice if the emission requirement guidelines were simple ... something along the lines of "installation of cat (or cats if dual exhaust), pcv, egr, charcoal can will result in a pass as long as these parts are functioning. My worry is this ... what engine control systems (originally installed by the factory) are really considered emissions related (eg electric choke, heat riser etc ... will the egr, pcv, cats, and charcoal can/sealed tank really be enough in their eyes?

I should be back up and running in a week or so, I guess I just might get my answers on the side of the road from one of their inspectors ... here's hoping I pass.

Careful there Ed. For a vehicle defined as a "hot rod", the regulation refers to the date that the new motor was installed, not the date of registration. I understand that the MOE is putting the onus on the vehicle owner to prove when the swap was done, and if push comes to shove you will need receipts and the like to prove that the swap was done prior to January 1, 1999 to avoid the emissions nonsense. Also, does the VIN on your Suburban identify the year? If the ownership is wrong there is a method of having it corrected - can't remember the details right now but it can be done.