emmissions on older cars

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

RE: emmissions on older cars

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Wonder if those after market pieces would "cut the mustard" with these clowns, If it's not where they can see it or where it's "supposed" to be, then I doubt it????

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

none of those pieces are after market - they are genuine replacement for factory pieces ot factory pieces - and there is no where where it says one has to run "factory" precisely becaue "factory " is no longer available. it just says you mus t have certain parts

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Hey Hemi43 I hear ya .I never imagined my hobbywould cause me more stress than my business.The ones I really feel bad for are the people who work hard to put on shows and rod runs for charity .Its pretty sad when you have to wonder weather its worth chancing or not.I find myself checking to make shure I have my CAA card just incase I get stopped and have my plates taken.The kid from Cobourg is right when he says they are all getting into the act.The last "safety" blitz they had was a joint effort by MOE,MTO,local cops and for some reason the revinue dept,he said they were looking for contraband smokes,really.Probably was to handel all the fine money.I belive I read in the paper after that they had inspected more than 70 vehicles,laid more than 20charges and pulled the plates on several vehicles.Gee I feel much safer now .Are charities now going to have to issue us some kind of please don't hassel notices now if you attend one of there events.Remember when gas prices was the big problem. Ed

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

Maybe we need to take a new approach to this, something like occupy T.O but with an old car motive. Perhaps a giant cruise to the Ontario legislature on a busy week day tying up traffic on the 400 series highways, set up our car show tents on the lawns, run a 50-50 draw, 50's music is a must. Rather than 10,000 signatures on a petition, 10,000 old cars camped out on the lawns of Queens Park should grab someones attention!!

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

We could call it the Canadian Nationals hell in the states they get that many cars to the streetrod nationals every year don't they. Ed

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Not that I totally agree with the way the petition is worded, my Son and I signed it today anyway. It can't hurt !!

80GMC · New Member

This all started in Cobourg 3 years ago when that durham cop moved down here. All the time he's in the paper saying crap like " I won't stop until everyone is up to snuff with our laws". His nick name is "goober" and now that everyone calls him that he actually likes it. About twice a week he gets all the cops in the area to cruise around town and send dozens of people to there checkpoint. I am at the point now I don't even want to drive my truck because all it is is a hassel and you can guarentee they will find some minor infaction every time. If they want to be fair about this pull some of those rice rockets and crap spewing black smoke over with there goofy paint can exhaust systems.

Like I said in my last post, the last time I got pulled over he said to me "you better lose that temper or I will fine you large for no pollution pumps". He even wrote it on my fine at the bottom, pollution pumps missing. I even said to him you can't find them anymore there all rotted off,seized up and scrapped.

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Has anyone got one of those $50 packages from GM (Heritage?) that shows what was on your car/truck when it was built? I have not seen one in several years. Any chance that indicates what emission stuff was on it when built? If so, you know what you require AND then you can't be told to put something on it that it never had.

As for Goober, get as many people together as possible that have the priviledge of his company and start to compile an argument for his dismissal. If necessary approach a lawyer for a game plan and get a meeting with the Chief of Police or the Mayor. Just because Goober carries a big stick does not mean his attitude is what the community wants. HE really does work for you. A few years ago in Bradford there was a cop with a similar attitude. That meeting only had to go as high as the Sargent. That officer was advised to keep his own person vendetta to himself, or seek other employment.

Gather your facts, organize your thinking and make a proper presentation. Just like we are going to have to do to get our elected representatives to consider our position on Vintage cars and emissions.

the Kid.

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Lets stop the propaganda now!!! There were not 40 clasic pulled over in Midland for MTO infractions. I dont konw who the hell starts this shat but it has to stop. The MTO the OPP had a road side inspection for vehical inspection for colored diesel fuel. Nothing more and nothing less. So all of you folks over in the Lindsay area it is all good over here. Not one of our members have ever been stoped. Not to say we won't someday but it hasen't happened yet. I am hearing the same crap out of Barrie too and all it takes is one guy to fabricate a story and wham. I heard this from a friend of a friend of a friend.

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

like I said early on - my run in with the MOE was quite pleasant actually. I was polite - they were polite, everyone went home happy.
They let me off with a warning and a time to get it fixed and it coulda been a whole lot worse ;o)

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

u got to remember people these guys are usually decent if you are, i only react to them if they are ignorant and are out to nail u. carrying a vid camera works wonders, they dont want to be filmed violating your rights. just remember before they even get a word out inform them they are being video recorded to protect your rights, they back off right away once they know that and it is your right to record any exchange as long as you inform them first

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Seeker1056 wrote:
like I said early on - my run in with the MOE was quite pleasant actually. I was polite - they were polite, everyone went home happy.
They let me off with a warning and a time to get it fixed and it coulda been a whole lot worse ;o)

Yeah, but we don't all have a "get out of jail" card like you do !!

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Had another good turn out in Bradford last night (June 29). Gerry from P.I. Barrie showed up.
I was able to give him about 100 more signatures on the petition. He still has NOT heard anything about the 2 street rods towed away in Barrie. This starting to sound like an urban legend. If anybody knows anything about that situation please post. Looking for names or a way to identify who, what, WHY?

Had a bunch of people ask for copies of petition so they can collect signatures. Keep looking at the cruise nights & car shows , if you have not signed yet please do.

That cop, Goober, or whatever he is, do you think Oshawa & Durham region is going to be happy about his vendetta approaching & during Autofest? How about the Autofest crew? They have spent $$$ on promotion and invited many people/cars. Think of the damage if Goober runs amok with all the local & OUT OF PROVINCE cars. Think of the damage to that show with the THREAT of impound or a hefty collection of tickets. Maybe somebody should be talking to the Mayor NOW!

Somebody mentioned a pull over event featuring several different agencys including someone seeking out illegal tobacco. Illegal smokes will get your car towed away, even if it passes every test you can think of. And of course the infamous .08 consideration will as well.

Just a thought, Has anyone that has been ticketed tried that website where you post your ticket and lawyers or advocates get in touch with you to defend you, please post. Anybody know Eric Law, the guy that writes about car law from the Star? Probably should have a conversation with him.

Any one that has been ticketed or impounded send Bob McJannett an email at bmcj@performanceimprovements.com. Include your phone number.

In the words of that famous car guy Red Green "Remember, I'm pulling for ya. We're all in this together!"

the Kid

will · WALKERTON, ONT

We collected 65 signatures yesterday at the Chesley Car Show which I will mail this week to MPP John O'Toole. I also passed out blank copies of the Petition Form to people who were going to collect signatures in there home area.
Following is a copy of the letter I wrote to my local MPP with a copy to the Environment Minister. MPP John O'Toole and MPP Steve Clarke NEED these original signatures to support the petition, BUT EVERY MPP NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT THIS PETITION REQUEST AS THEY ARE THE ONES WHO DO THE VOTING. Please ask people to write to their local MPP and request support for this petition when it comes up for vote.
The following link will take you to a complete listing of all the MPP's in Ontario. Copy and paste to your browser.
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/members/members_current.do?locale=en&channel_id=%7B923146e7-4d81-42a8-99f0-e61f5ab50387%7D〈=en

Lisa Thompson, MPP
Huron-Bruce
807 Queen Street, Unit 2
Kincardine, Ontario
N2Z-2Y2

CC Minister of the Environment – Honorable Jim Bradley

This letter is to bring to your attention our concern of Ministry Of Environment (MOE) enforcing Ontario Regulation 361/98 – Environmental Protection Act Motor Vehicles – pertaining to “Kit Cars, Rebuilt Cars & Hot Rods”. It seems that MOE officers have begun targeting these special vehicles while they attend cruise nights and car shows. This becomes easy pickings as these vehicles are all located in one place on a given day or evening. We understand the MOE officers have a job to do and that they are enforcing the rules as they have been written. This is where our concern comes in. The collector car & hot rod hobby cars amount to a very very small percentage of registered vehicles in Ontario. The rules, as they are written, seem to be very unfair for our cars. These cars are only driven during the summer months, primarily to local shows sponsored by the business community and service clubs. We are proud of our cars and what we have built or restored. We keep them in top running order. Usually we are required to pay to enter our car in the show. We buy meals, reserve motel rooms, purchase draw tickets etc. all in support of the local show organizers and businesses.
There have been many concerns addressed in various car publications about the direction the car hobby is headed if we are to adhere to the MOE regulations.

I have enclosed copies from “Old Autos Newspaper” publication supporting letters written by enthusiasts Bob Purdy, Dean Renwick, Nate Salter and Chris Whillans. All long term car guys.
Performance Improvements owner Bob McJannett included his take in his recent summer edition of Performance in Motion publication. Bob's performance stores have been supporting the car hobby for 48 years in Ontario. Copies are included.
I have enclosed copies from the Ontario Rodders Forum showing both the Petition form and some member comments.
Also included are copies of letters written by Jim Prowse of London and Mike Lowden from Windsor, both very long term car guy supporters.

A petition is now circulation amongst car enthusiasts throughout Ontario and is supported by MPP John R. O'Toole from Durham region as well as MPP Steve Clark from Leeds-Grenville. A copy of this petition is attached.

The petition is asking that the Ontario Legislature support Ontarians who collect and restore old vehicles by amending the appropriate laws and regulations to ensure vehicles over 20 years old and exempt from Drive Clean testing shall also be exempt from additional emissions requirements enforced by the Ministry of the Environment and governing the installation of newer engines into old cars and trucks.

Personally, I will be collecting signatures in support of this petition at all car shows and cruise nights I attend in Huron – Bruce. Other car enthusiasts in Huron – Bruce are doing the same. Lisa, you know the crowds that support these events in Huron-Bruce, like Kincardine on a Friday Night. These signed petitions will then be mailed to MPP John O'Toole and MPP Steve Clark to support this request for change by the Ontario Legislature.

Lisa, as a voting resident of Huron-Bruce, I am asking your support of this petition.

Thanking you in advance

John Willoughby
310 Durham St. W.
Unit 602
Walkerton, On.
N0G2V0
519-507-3286
jwilloughby32@gmail.com

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Just got an E-mail this morning from a friend. Apparently there was a car show a couple of weeks ago that the MOE showed up to. Also in attendance was John O'Toole. A few of the car owners got fined including John O'Toole !! I didn't even know he had an old car !!
Interesting news. Maybe this will push him even harder to bring about change.

Sniper · WATFORD, ONT

This can be carried a little farther than just the MPP's. Mayor's and council of the various cities and smaller centers need to be informed that they can and will suffer as well. Tourism is not what it was in the past, so when a larger show is on, even mainly visited by locals and over nighters, the restaurants, hotels etc. of the host municipality feels the financial boost. But if they sit idle, they to will take a hit financially, and they will understand that. Newspaper editorials and comment pages are a good way to get it out to the common person...provided it's wrote out explaining the cause, and not some halfbaked rant that just muddies the water. There are more fronts to fight this on than just MPP's. We need numbers for effect, even if it isn't direct car owners, they (the common guy) can question the local government just as easy as we can. Same as the charities that benefit from these shows, let them know we can use their help, more voices. Most people understand finances, maybe we should be pushing it on that front as well. If this clamp down continues to happen and goes province wide, enough vehicles could get parked or sold. So how long before indoor car shows become a thing of the past? A lot of money spent, and made, for municipalities on weekend shows, especially during the cold months. Do you think they, the local governments would be willing to just let that go? I doubt it. But it has to be brought to their attention.

For every change you ask for, you should have an answer, or solution, that is fair for both parties involved. If the vehicle is stock, it has to conform to the standards that it needed at the time of manufacture. (How it meets them is secondary if this is truly a environmental concern.)

Modified vehicles would require the 1980 standards for emissions output. (Again, how it meets them is secondary, not all older emission system worked.) E-tests have to be performed, emission equipment that was used on the vehicle at the time of a "PASS" must be listed on the paperwork, and kept with the vehicle. If you get stopped and inspected, you have proof of the required equipment for your vehicle and the test results obtained.

(Get stopped without the equipment that is listed, don't whine...just pay your fine.)

Get stopped on a roadside sniff test and fail, but with the listed equipment installed, you get a grace period to get it fixed. Fail to fix it and not drive, that's up to you. (Continue to drive without the proper repairs for your vehicle, don't whine, just pay the fine.)

Now all this is just my opinion, but for the most part, it looks after both sides of the equation. The emissions problem is met, and the car hobby is still intact with a few changes. The people involved with the cars are quite ingenious and can incorporate the changes without the hideous systems that were used on the OEM vehicles. The one other change required is from the ministry (MOE). It has to have people that are trained, know what they are doing, and know why they are there. They have presently failed on that point to date from what I can see.

This is also my opinion, but this whole exercise looks alot like the Ministry is testing the water to see what kind of backlash is going to take place. We shouldn't disappoint them.

-- Edited by Sniper on Wednesday 4th of July 2012 07:48:29 PM

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

RAT BOY wrote:

I agree with an earlier suggestion on hobby cars, its time to get organized and do some lobbying of our "esteemed" Provincial elected officials.
EXACTLY!!! THis law, if you read it insists on orignal equipment replacement parts! That means if you buy your air cleaner from Can. Tire of NApa or anyone other than the dealer - you are in violation. What will this do to the economy and to all these parts suppliers? Also wondering how many charities are going to suffer badly from the lack of funds car shows generate for them. Write your mpp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I also sent a letter to the minister of tourism and the minister of culture and they're assistants suggesting a "Collector Car Appreciation Day". Might be cool to get some of these elected officials squabbling. Get you pens out guys! NAmes and assignments are posted on line - if you can't find it tell me and I'll post a link. We're going to end up with very expensive garage ornaments if these idiots are allowed to continue.

-- Edited by RAT BOY on Saturday 11th of February 2012 10:54:11 PM

Bob T · BRANTFORD, ONT

As I posted previously my 1940 Ford has a 7 yr. old G.M. Mexican long block asm. that I added a P.C.V. to. Realalizing I might be in violation of the current law I bought a 1966 283 complete low milage engine for $100. on Saturday. You know the type , rear tube & breather on the intake [no P.C.V. valve]. It will make me feel so much better to comply with the law as idiotic as it is.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

The 283 with the "blow by" tube will likely not be as clean as the 7yr. old engine, but the way this "idiotic" law is written & inforced, the 283 "spuing" fumes from the crankcase tube is "LEGAL" GO FIGURE?????

scruffre · COBOURG, ONT

My experence with MOE was a little different with the 78.

After I opened my hood, The first thing he said was " No charcoal canister?

I said the truck was not equiped with one. He looked for the outlet on the carb but could not find one. Then he asked about an air pump. Nope I said. Original manifolds he asked. Yep I said. The I told him that the Blazer had the "NA2" code on the RPO sheet, which is standard emmissions. I showed him the sheet, he then said he was going to check his book and let me know what should be there. Meanwhile I'm crapping my shorts.

He comes back and asks if the GVW is still on the truck. I show him where it is ( it is 6200lbs). He goes back to his book. He comes back and tells me that the Blazer is a PCV system only. Being a 4X4 and rated over 6000 lbs, it's classed as a heavy duty truck. Had it been 2wd it would have needed cats, pumps, egr, etc.

I also have all the original emission lables on the truck.

-- Edited by scruffre on Thursday 5th of July 2012 02:58:42 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Seeker1056 wrote:
it clearly says model year of the car - not the engine.!!!!

You're looking at Drive clean information!! Drive clean has nothing to do with the old cars(pre 1980). Our issue is with bill 361/98 section 4.2

Even if you wanted to get a 70's car run through a Drive clean facility, or were told to by an MOE officer to get your car done, it would be impossible. The computer program that they (Drive Clean) use only recognizes the modern 17 digit VIN.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 5th of July 2012 03:56:50 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

dualquadpete wrote:
The 283 with the "blow by" tube will likely not be as clean as the 7yr. old engine, but the way this "idiotic" law is written & inforced, the 283 "spuing" fumes from the crankcase tube is "LEGAL" GO FIGURE?????

That "face to face" meeting with John O'Toole with a few of the members here is long overdue. Some of us really should sit down together over a coffee, and jot down something to present to him. Unfortunately I'm not talking about the guys that own 1972 and newer vehicles. I don't want to sell you guys down the river, but the law has been very clear for 40 years that we cannot remove emission controls. You guys will have to be legal.

What I'm trying to preserve is the older cars like T-buckets, 32 Fords, Willy's, 50's Mercs etc.. These are the cars that should be exempt from emission controls regardless of what engine gets installed in them.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Bob T wrote:
As I posted previously my 1940 Ford has a 7 yr. old G.M. Mexican long block asm. that I added a P.C.V. to. Realalizing I might be in violation of the current law I bought a 1966 283 complete low milage engine for $100. on Saturday. You know the type , rear tube & breather on the intake [no P.C.V. valve]. It will make me feel so much better to comply with the law as idiotic as it is.

These are the types of stories that the MP needs to hear about. Even a 10 year old would know that using that old engine is way more polutting than the newer engine even without cats. Todays heads and cam profiles are way more efficient.

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

Well, as much as I would like to believe that I have equipped my '85 305 with enough emissions related items, I am not confident enough that I will pass one of the MOE checks (although I would bet BIG that I would pass an actual sniff test with ease). My feeling is that if I get pulled over, the MOE will keep looking until they find something they can charge me with. Yesterday I pulled a '69 350 (sbc) apart in preparation for a "freshening". I would really prefer to spend my cash on actual parts and not fines, so I am now leaning toward installing an early engine just to be safe.

I want them to waste their time checking my out and NOT being able to fine me for anything. With having a couple of early blocks on hand, I feel my best bet of passing is to run an early block.

Friend of mine has a '67 Camaro with an "010" 350 block ("010" was a '69-'79 engine block). His problem is the engine has been decked when it was rebuilt so the identifying numbers are gone. I did some poking around on the 'net and found that there are other numbers/letters at the back of the block (to the left of the dist on the trans flange) that state exactly when the block was cast. Hopefully these casting numbers will be good enough for the MOE people.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

123pugsy wrote:
Rusty Nuts wrote:
hemi43 wrote:
Seeker1056 wrote:
it clearly says model year of the car - not the engine.!!!!
You're looking at Drive clean information!! Drive clean has nothing to do with the old cars(pre 1980). Our issue is with bill 361/98 section 4.2
Even if you wanted to get a 70's car run through a Drive clean facility, or were told to by an MOE officer to get your car done, it would be impossible. The computer program that they (Drive Clean) use only recognizes the modern 17 digit VIN.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 5th of July 2012 03:56:50 PM

I would love to give my '38 a sniff test (just for giggles). Sounds like there isn't any way possible for me to even have the test done.
Although I did read earlier on one of the pages of this post that passing an emission test is not good enough ... all the emissions equipement must be present and functioning, I'd still be interested in doing the sniffer test.
Use this VIN. Its an 85 Chev pickup: IGTECI4H3FF729988

It's not as easy as that !!

I stopped in at a Drive clean station just a couple of weeks ago. This is not just any drive clean, but Al Wrights in Oshawa. The way he explained it to me was that he was the first drive clean in the area, and now he actually teaches MOE officers.

I asked him to sniff my street rod, because I wanted to know how clean it was running. This is when he explained to me (from what I remember) that you can't just throw a car on the rollers, and perform an e test. The computer program is designed in such a way that the vehicle in question will either pass or fail. This is done to prevent people from "monkeying" with the results. He's also the one that told me that MOE officers cannot force you to get an old car sniffed if it does not have a 17 VIN #.

He went on to show me the procedure on how its done. The first thing put into the computer is the 17# VIN, then the computer will ask if this car is a "hot rod". If the operator clicks "yes", then the computer will figure out what the emission limits should be. We know that hot rods must meet 1980 standards, but one thing I did not realize is that different manufacturers have different 1980 standards. Meaning the numbers for a Ford may not necessarily be the same as numbers for a Chev.

He did put a gas analyzer on my car, but all we could do is imitate a 2 speed idle and hit "print screen" to get the results. A full proper test could not be done because of reasons I've given above ( only 5 digit VIN on my car).

He told me that if I went to see him because an MOE officer forced me to get my car tested, he would just give me a letter to take to court stating that the car cannot be done.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 5th of July 2012 07:28:25 PM

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

If he clicked no, it wasn't a hot rod, then you could at least see if it met 1985 standards using the VIN I gave.
When I took my 79 Chev pickup, the guy entered something, not sure whay, it was a while ago and it passed no problem.

-- Edited by 123pugsy on Thursday 5th of July 2012 09:01:37 PM

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

intersting

http://www.iwebhosting.ca/svao/driveclean.html

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

it clearly says model year of the car - not the engine.!!!!

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Rusty Nuts wrote:
Well, as much as I would like to believe that I have equipped my '85 305 with enough emissions related items, I am not confident enough that I will pass one of the MOE checks (although I would bet BIG that I would pass an actual sniff test with ease). My feeling is that if I get pulled over, the MOE will keep looking until they find something they can charge me with. Yesterday I pulled a '69 350 (sbc) apart in preparation for a "freshening". I would really prefer to spend my cash on actual parts and not fines, so I am now leaning toward installing an early engine just to be safe.

I want them to waste their time checking my out and NOT being able to fine me for anything. With having a couple of early blocks on hand, I feel my best bet of passing is to run an early block.

Friend of mine has a '67 Camaro with an "010" 350 block ("010" was a '69-'79 engine block). His problem is the engine has been decked when it was rebuilt so the identifying numbers are gone. I did some poking around on the 'net and found that there are other numbers/letters at the back of the block (to the left of the dist on the trans flange) that state exactly when the block was cast. Hopefully these casting numbers will be good enough for the MOE people.

Casting number are not sufficient, because the same casting number was used for multiple years, and in different vehicles. Some cars may have had cats, and some trucks none, even though they both used the same block with the same casting number.

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:

Casting number are not sufficient, because the same casting number was used for multiple years, and in different vehicles. Some cars may have had cats, and some trucks none, even though they both used the same block with the same casting number.

The block casting number in this particular case is something like 3970010. These blocks were cast and used between 1969 and 1979. There is another set of numbers on some sbc engines that actually states exactly when the specific block in question was cast. On a sbc there will be a letter for the month (A=Jan, B=Feb etc) then three numbers ... the first two numbers are the day the engine was cast and the third number will be the year (1=71, 2=72 etc). There is also a "clock" of sorts that shows the hour of the day that block was cast. One possible problem with using this set up on a 3970010 block is that a 9 for the year could mean 69 or 79. Although the 3970010 blocks could have been cast at any time btween 69 and 79, these other numbers will show exactly when it was cast.

The only problem I see with using these numbers is the fact that you aren't able to determine exactly what type of car it came out of (and therefore what emission controls are required) so I would assume that one would have to include any and every emission device available on a Chev 350 of that year (car or truck) in order to (hopefully) guarantee compliance.

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
Seeker1056 wrote:
it clearly says model year of the car - not the engine.!!!!
You're looking at Drive clean information!! Drive clean has nothing to do with the old cars(pre 1980). Our issue is with bill 361/98 section 4.2
Even if you wanted to get a 70's car run through a Drive clean facility, or were told to by an MOE officer to get your car done, it would be impossible. The computer program that they (Drive Clean) use only recognizes the modern 17 digit VIN.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 5th of July 2012 03:56:50 PM

I would love to give my '38 a sniff test (just for giggles). Sounds like there isn't any way possible for me to even have the test done.

Although I did read earlier on one of the pages of this post that passing an emission test is not good enough ... all the emissions equipement must be present and functioning, I'd still be interested in doing the sniffer test.

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

Rusty Nuts wrote:
hemi43 wrote:
Seeker1056 wrote:
it clearly says model year of the car - not the engine.!!!!
You're looking at Drive clean information!! Drive clean has nothing to do with the old cars(pre 1980). Our issue is with bill 361/98 section 4.2
Even if you wanted to get a 70's car run through a Drive clean facility, or were told to by an MOE officer to get your car done, it would be impossible. The computer program that they (Drive Clean) use only recognizes the modern 17 digit VIN.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 5th of July 2012 03:56:50 PM

I would love to give my '38 a sniff test (just for giggles). Sounds like there isn't any way possible for me to even have the test done.
Although I did read earlier on one of the pages of this post that passing an emission test is not good enough ... all the emissions equipement must be present and functioning, I'd still be interested in doing the sniffer test.

Use this VIN. Its an 85 Chev pickup: IGTECI4H3FF729988

78ta455 · Member

ontario' getting to be more like nazi germany everyday. mcsquinty's gotta go.

78ta455 · Member

it's time we got rid of these useless parasites.

atomsplitter · NEWCASTLE, ONT

Maybe we need to look at this from a different angle. After reading the latest letter to the editor in Old Auto's today regarding these emissions laws a line struck me as very important. It mentioned that there are still alot of old guys out there that are hearing about these laws and fines at car shows or in periodicals like Old Autos. Who represented them in government when these changes were drawn up, did they use any forsight to think how they were going to implement it when they wrote it up? Who was there to represent us, the car owners, club members, parts suppliers, charity organizers, etc, etc. that are effected by this cash grab?

Perhaps we can get our MPP's to try have the law repealed so that the general public can be informed of the laws before they shove them down our throats. They can't reasonably expect my uncle to put emissions equipment on his motor if he doesn't know about it because he doesn't have a COMPUTER! Also, how fast did they expect us to react these laws? If you think about it, "by the word of the law", we should have all parked our cars immediately and had them towed to the repair shop to get them retrofitted with the correct emissions components so they were legal.

This is almost entrapment if you look at it! It's probably downright unconstitutional too!
My truck flew the certification and no one there said anything. The license office didn't inform me either. Neither did my insurance company. I didn't get an e-mail or letter in the mail or read an article in the paper to let me know of these imposed changes to bill 361/98 section 4.2 back in 2010 (?).

Where's the governments responsibility in a situation like this to inform us of changes to existing laws that carry fines/penalities for non-compliance?

All we need to do now is find some honest lawyers to help us out.

-- Edited by Atomsplitter on Sunday 8th of July 2012 11:16:29 PM

Hibred · WATERFORD, ONT

78ta455 wrote:
ontario' getting to be more like nazi germany everyday. mcsquinty's gotta go.

I agree with you but the next sack of monkey crap we get in could and would be even dummer and worse, i honestly don't know how many of our elected and paid by us polictians can even sleep at night and feel they are doing a wonderful job, sheesh they have more cahonies then most i would say.

Sniper · WATFORD, ONT

Atomsplitter wrote:
All we need to do now is find some honest lawyers to help us out.

I agree with everything you brought up except the last line....that's an oxymoron if there ever was one. Just for the heck of it, look up how many lawyers are in politics and hold seats in both Federal and Provincial government. Might be a good reason, why we're where we are.

-- Edited by Sniper on Monday 9th of July 2012 12:06:21 AM

-- Edited by Sniper on Monday 9th of July 2012 12:07:12 AM

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Here's info to decode your Chevy engine.
1) decode suffix code http://www.nastyz28.com/chevy-engine-code-stampings.php

2) decode casting number http://www.nastyz28.com/sbchevy/sblock.php

3) Decode casting date
http://www.ehow.com/how_7807152_do-decode-gm-casting-numbers.html

As I have been collecting signatures on the petition I have met many people that DO NOT have a computer, nor do they subscribe to Old Autos and DO NOT get Performance in Motion magazine from Performance Improvements. I have taken some liberties and made copies of some of the letters and articles as well as an article I have written and distributed them to whoever would like one. I grab extra copies of Performance in Motion when I'm at the local P.I. I have handed out extra copies of the petition to whoever would like to get signatures from their family and friends. I have said earlier to make sure family and friends from ALL parts of Ontario need to become involved whether they require to Drive Clean their cars or not. This is the Ontario Environmental Protection Act, not Ontario Drive Clean. Start emailing or snail mailing everyone you know. A few $$$ in postage is a lot less than fines that start at $365. Don't wait for somebody else to do this.
Just a note here. The people trying to repeal the dangerous dog breeds legislation have 247,000 signatures and are hoping for the best. We better get going. In politics the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

As you can see from of my other postings, I have been interested in this hobby since I was a young kid. I became involved because it thrilled me and I found it challenging, creative and interesting. Getting involved in Politics was never my intent. Our generously compensated representatives have brought the fight to us. We all know what happens if we do nothing, and our representatives will not feel guilty. So, we are the ones that need to fight the fight.
Everyone with a vintage car/truck knows somebody else with one.

You duty is clear, pick up your petitions and pens. I have posted above where to get copies, including on this activeboard, and where send completed petitions. Read Tbird Deuce's letter to his MPP and send your letter to your MPP. Use John's letter as guide to completing yours.

the Kid

Sacotu · COBOURG, ONT

2 friends had court appearance in cobourg this morning for missing cat/emission equipment on their cars. one was a 79 transam and the other was a 81 camaro. both cars have had the necessary equipment replaced such as $500 for cats, think the 81 had a missing charcoal canister, don't know the outcome.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Sacotu wrote:
2 friends had court appearance in cobourg this morning for missing cat/emission equipment on their cars. one was a 79 transam and the other was a 81 camaro. both cars have had the necessary equipment replaced such as $500 for cats, think the 81 had a missing charcoal canister, don't know the outcome.

I'm going to tell you the outcome !!

The guy with the 79 is GUILTY !!

The guy with the 81 is GUILTY !!

They have emission controlled vehicles, and they know that the equipment must be there !! Throw the book at em !!!

Why? because as long as these idiots are running around breaking the law, those of us that have older vehicles will get caught up in the cross fire.

Sacotu · COBOURG, ONT

The 81 was bought this spring safetied including a brand new front to back exhaust. The 79 was bought last fall but needed very little to safety, tires I think. The owners are going what the heck this is the way we got them. Are they guilty. According to the standard Yes.

I do have an issue with calling all these folks idiot for breaking the law because I know ignorance is not bliss but everybody has be doing it and I mean everybody as long as I’ve been playing with car we have been taking that pollution crap off our car. We all knew it was wrong, but what the hell we have been doing it for 30 years or more. This has very far reaches, basically anybody I know with a hotrod/older car is illegal right now if they have a car newer then 73 or an engine. As a further note my 3 antiques are now legal including having my downdraft tube plumbed into my carb. I have a 78 jeep, looks like I’m gonna have to do some scrounging before it sees the road

What I have issues is because some gov’t agency is hell bent on recovering funds we are all criminals now. Wasn’t much of a heads up and the department doing the searches are not really sure of the standards and we are all guilty till we prove ourself innocent. What I’ve have seen is 30 years or more of this pollution stuff that has been removed from the old cars/trucks and all of a sudden there is a big rush to get it back on.

Another story had a friend of mine last year on his way into the haugen year end bash have his 76 kawasaki bike ticketed because he didn’t have the crankcase vent to the airbox. I don’t know about you folks most of those old bikes had the airbox and exhaust tossed soon after purchase and replaced with k&n filters and a header.

I’m liken this emissions witch hunt to shooting fish in a barrel.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

seems to me the MOE is finding the late 70's & early 80's are targets & these cars are emmission controlled & should be fined, but this now has got them "sniffing" around the older cars with newer engines, Rat Rods & Hot Rods Etc. This "WITCH" hunt has nothing to do with the enviroment as our older cars don't make a "teaspoon" worth of polution compared to a airplane or train etc. It's just a REVENUE generator, & MOE showing they are out there doing "GOOD" things & Mc GOOFY can hold press conferances telling us all "what a great job he is doing" The "tree huggers" & Greenies" will believe this crap & we come out as being the "bad guy"

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Sacotu wrote:
The 81 was bought this spring safetied including a brand new front to back exhaust. The 79 was bought last fall but needed very little to safety, tires I think. The owners are going what the heck this is the way we got them. Are they guilty. According to the standard Yes.
A safety certificate is just that, "A Safety"! The mechanic which gave them the certificate couldn't care less if the emission system is intact or not. I don't understand why the owners would be dumbfounded when they got charged, because we have all known that tampering with emission stuff was a no-no!!
I do have an issue with calling all these folks idiot for breaking the law because I know ignorance is not bliss but everybody has be doing it and I mean everybody as long as I’ve been playing with car we have been taking that pollution crap off our car. We all knew it was wrong, but what the hell we have been doing it for 30 years or more.
Maybe calling them "idiots" was a bit harsh, but it's these guys that have to get crap together if we're ever going to get the MOE off of our backs. There's lots of stuff we used to do 30 years ago that we can't do anymore. We live in a different world now !! It's called a "Police State". I bet in 10 years we will all have to wear charcoal lined underwear because some environmental smart-ass figured out that our farts contain methane and it is bad for our atmosphere. It may sound like a joke today, but in the future it may be the norm.

This has very far reaches, basically anybody I know with a hotrod/older car is illegal right now if they have a car newer then 73 or an engine. As a further note my 3 antiques are now legal including having my downdraft tube plumbed into my carb. I have a 78 jeep, looks like I’m gonna have to do some scrounging before it sees the road
I agree !! I hope you are making these people aware that they are not legal . Tell the guys with 73 and up cars that they will have to put the stuff back on, and tell the guys with 73 and older cars to call their MP and complain that it's idiotic to even think about putting emission stuff on a car that was never designed to have them.

What I have issues is because some gov’t agency is hell bent on recovering funds we are all criminals now. Wasn’t much of a heads up and the department doing the searches are not really sure of the standards and we are all guilty till we prove ourself innocent. What I’ve have seen is 30 years or more of this pollution stuff that has been removed from the old cars/trucks and all of a sudden there is a big rush to get it back on.
There was no heads up whatsoever back in 99 when this law came into effect. I think it was a well thought out plan to nail people 9 years after the law was enacted. Nah !! Who am I kidding? They're not that smart !!

Another story had a friend of mine last year on his way into the haugen year end bash have his 76 kawasaki bike ticketed because he didn’t have the crankcase vent to the airbox. I don’t know about you folks most of those old bikes had the airbox and exhaust tossed soon after purchase and replaced with k&n filters and a header.
Hmmm.. Haugens keeps coming up as a hot spot for the MOE !! I called Steve (the owner of Haugens) last week and told him that the MOE sat outside of his business busting his customers. He was not aware, so hopefully he get's on the horn and does some complaining. We'll see !!!!

I’m liken this emissions witch hunt to shooting fish in a barrel.
Some of us getting shot are not fish!! Let's get the fish emission compliant, and maybe the shooting will stop !

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

hemi43 wrote:

I’m liken this emissions witch hunt to shooting fish in a barrel.
Some of us getting shot are not fish!! Let's get the fish emission compliant, and maybe the shooting will stop !
Wrong.
Lets not bolt old outdated junk on cars to get them compliant. This is what they want even if the equipment doesn't work.
Pure nonsense. Let's get more petitions filled out and sent in.
Fight these wankers, don't give in to their BS.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

123pugsy wrote:
hemi43 wrote:

I’m liken this emissions witch hunt to shooting fish in a barrel.
Some of us getting shot are not fish!! Let's get the fish emission compliant, and maybe the shooting will stop !
Wrong.
Lets not bolt old outdated junk on cars to get them compliant. This is what they want even if the equipment doesn't work.
I partly agree. There's nothing wrong with some of the emission stuff as long as these Nazis don't go too far with it. If they are happy with a PCV, EGR, EVAP and Cats, then all will be well with the 73 and up cars. These items will not rob horsepower. I hope they don't expect these cars to be 100% original because that will be impossible to do.

Pure nonsense. Let's get more petitions filled out and sent in.
It is pure nonsense, but there's no way that the Feds will go with the petition as it is written.
Fight these wankers, don't give in to their BS.
I'm trying !!

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

We have 3 strings now discussing this Emissions on Vintage Cars theme. We still have much bitching and not enough action. Let's change that.
You go to car events, and go without petitions?
Think of this petition as an American Express card; DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT.
By the way, which would you rather be known as the guy with that old car petition, or, the guy with the useless vintage car sitting and rotting?
No matter how cool you think your car/truck is, it's gonna be less cool if you can't drive it and neither can anyone else. MOST of us do not regard the time and money spent on our toys as potential capital investments, but, if we give up on this matter it really is gonna be money straight into the toilet.
I am not satisfied with that result.
There are plenty of events left before September 1st, get going!

the Kid.

30AV8 · BURLINGTON, ONT

Mailed in 100 signatures today. This took a few cruises to do it, but I noticed the last 30 or so just signed without me having to explain forever the reasons why, which means the word is getting out there. I'm like RustyNuts, in that I have several major emission components already on, but am not confident enough that they will nickle and dime me to death until they find some silly valve missing etc... Hopefully this petition and awareness will bring change, otherwise will also look for an older emission free cancer spewing block, why does that just sound so wrong.

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

Between the cruise nights and shows, we've turned in about 1000 signatures so far from our little part of Ontario. With everyone getting the petition out there the 10K signatures won't be far off, keep the momentum up!!

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

Ok so because I work for the govt I managed to get ahold of the head honcho at MOE.

He told me he fields about 3-5 calls every day on this subject.

He also told me he is closely working with the Old Car associations - I forget the names now - as i didnt write them down, as well as the old car appraisers associations.

They have listened, they have done something about it, and in fact by months end there will be published, by the MOE , a definitive paper on what is what with "Hotrods" , what is legal or not legal and what you can or cant do, that will be posted on the Govt webpage.

So - Here is what I know to be true from reading this thread and the posts in it - there is not likely even one single person on here who has any direct personal experience with an MOE inspection or a subsequent fine or drive clean sniffer test - its all second, third or fourth hand, from a friend or friend of a friend or I heard at a show, or I read on the internet.

I asked every one of the questions posed on this thread on all ten pages and got very different answers from the MOE as compared to whats been posted on here.

Questions - from the top.

any pre 1999 motor swap does not need to have any emmissions equipment for the motor, to be installed. It may need to have the equipment for the year of the car, installed, ie air pump, cats, egr, and yes - they can be aftermarket, they can be electric pumps hidden away, remote mounted egr's and 3" performance cats.

any pre 1999 engine swap made into a pre emmissions car doesnt need anythign installed for emissions - period! So your 73-99 motor installed into anything 72 or older needs nothing for emmisions provided you installed the motor pre 1999

Proof you installed it pre 1999 - may be a reciept for the motor or donor car, or even your word - most people can tell a swap was done some time ago just by the details - as things we do for installs change by decade as things and technology advance. The MOE officer is NOT going to call you a liar unless you are blatantly lying or being beligerant.

******A note on this - if you are aggresive, beligerant, rude, condescending etc - you will get the full monte, the inspector is just another person with a job to do, and doesnt need or want to endure any bull**** and wont.

If he thinks you are lying - yes you may get a fine, but more likely will be told to hit a drive clean with his form he gives you and the drive clean will imput that code in order to do the drive clean on your old car to pre 1980 Emissions standards.

The officers are NOT crawling around your car checking engine numbers - period - if they think you are lying they will issue an order to attend an MTO garage and thier mechanic will crawl into your car or around your motor to find out the engine codes.

The MOE knows that various blocks were used for decades, like the 010 the 379, the 817 Chevies etc etc etc, and they dont care - you tell them what year it is, or when it was installed, and unless they think you are lying, thats the end of the story. see ******

If your motor swap was 1999 or newer - the motor to be installed must have all of its emissions equipment on it. The car does not need its original emissions stuff on it in addition to the motor stuff - its the motor that matters. So a 2002 Camaro with a 2010 6l motor installed must meet the 2010 motor specs for emissions equipment and be able to pass drive clean for the 2010 specs

Similarly - if you swap that 2010 motor into your 65 impala this year, the motor must meet the 2010 emissions requirements including equipment as installed for the year of the motor.

Emmisions information - they ARE using only Canadian data published here in Canada 2009 version of said documents, and it is readily available to anyone who wishes to pay for said book at any book store. It isnt cheap.

Anyone wanting emmissions info on thier particular car or motor, can also inquire at places like GM Vintage Services, and get every scrap of info on thier car or motor if they so choose, albiet it is expensive at $95 a pop plus applicable taxes.

Crate motors - you may install a crate motor - with zero emmsions equipment installed, into any car, and all it needs to do is meet the drive clean test, if it is 86 and newer car, a visual test if it is a 85 and older car, and if the MOE officer is in doubt - he may send you for a drive clean test with a form with a test number on it so you can be tested. Keep in mind you may still have to install the emmmisions equipment for the year of the car, like lets say a 93 camaro, with a new 502 crate engine - you may need cats, air pump and or egror whatever else was on the 93 Camaro, in order to be legal

At the end of the day - just about everything you heard or read about the MOE and emissions is untrue or so blown out of proportion it is ridiculous.

I need to run but will get back to this later

-- Edited by Seeker1056 on Friday 13th of July 2012 10:16:47 AM

-- Edited by Seeker1056 on Friday 13th of July 2012 10:24:01 AM

-- Edited by Seeker1056 on Friday 13th of July 2012 10:26:20 AM