Paint Shop Woes and Beefs

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Paint Shop Woes and Beefs

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

Seems to me, collision work is where the money is......Even a couple of restoration shops I deliver to are taking it in...maybe the economic times. People dont seem to want to get cars painted anymore, by the time the paint fades, they want a new one...throw away society.

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Seams like an odd problem .I thought ins co were writing everything off ,so you would think there would be lots of room for a paint job.I my business ,appliance repair,the problem is new ones are so cheap,(no money down , no payments for the rest of your life so people think),that people just get a new one .In our shop we welcome repair calls from local customers as opposed to just selling something if we can fix it for a reasonable cost.Money is money and yours is just as good as the next guys,don't know why they won't accept work in this econmy,must be nice to be so busy you can turn people away. Ed

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

I think these Body shops use the "re-spray" of restoration work as "fill ins" & that never seems to happen as the wrecks keep coming in the door. Quick clean work, Ins. co. send the cheque & it's NEXT!!!! Our oldies,take time,ties up a man for hrs. & he may not see the owner for a mth. or so & no or little "cash flow" & I for one, won't keep paying when theres no "progress" on the vehicle!! If that happens your in the wrong shop. I've contacted a few shops for quotes, 1 said he had to go right by here, still waiting aft. 2 mths.I've heard this "waterbase" paint will be more expensive, as they can only paint 1 car per day where they could "maybe get 2 or 3 thru the booth before????[ time is money] Trying to find a good Upolstery shop is another problem. Some are "booked" 2 yrs in advance, & others that I won't deal with are either way too expensive or take 3 yrs to do the work after you get the car there[same as body shop]

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Peter (this is a bit off topic..but..), if you are looking for a good upholstry shop, I can recommend one. (Yes. they are most likely expensive, but they do great work.) He did the interioir and the convertible top (install) on my '48. We only had pictures to rebuild the interioir from and it came out perfect. Top notch workmanship.

Vic

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Thanks Vic, but I have ordered & received a complete interior kit from the US & have a shop ligned up in Oshawa to install it!! Everything is complete, little sewing required, for less than 2/3 of what I have been quoted to make one!!!! The only thing they have to make is the covers for ftr. buckets & co. supplied me the material. Kit has 2 door pads & rr.1/4 pads, carpet, kick panels, Head/liner , welting, & parcel shelf & they recovered my sun visors to match, & rear seat covers, all custom built for $1495 US!! Was quoted 6000 & up to do this up here!!!!

30-S6 · NORTH BAY, ONT

I haven't read all of the posts but from a former body man/painter the ambition isn't there any more.. Guys are working flat rate so what ever time is spit out of a computer program is what the poor guy gets payed.. Managers now don't have a clue how to write an estimate..Because there is programs to do it for them. I reciently was talking to one of the owners of a local shop and he told me that they dont even pull dents. they replace everything due to insurance issues.Rust repair is a thing of the past young guys in the trade today are simply parts changers that pass the work off at the drop of a hat..mainly why I'm not in the shops anymore...no pride in workmanship anymore.......
Wish I could help out the only guy I know down there is a Mike Smith. I think the family shop was Smiths autobody in Keswick. not sure if he, or his brother is still doing body work. If your interested I can ask my sister if she knows anyone arround. May turn out to be a biker though....

89lxstanger · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

cad man where are you located? look in the art forum at my post "body art"

i work at a small shop doing alot of higher end BIG JOBS not just a fender and bumper etc. also i do side work at home, therer are still guys out there that love this and wanna do quality work

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the response. I am north of Newmarket.

You are in the Niagara Falls. A little far to move a car by flatbed..

Vic

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

what price is consider being cheap for a paint job ..............up north there ain t to many resto shop..............as experience i also seen body shop that won t touch and old car unless they do a perfect job ........even if all you want is just get it painted...............and there excuse is cause you ll be using it for cruise night ..........that there name is going to show so they want quality work to show for there own publicity

-- Edited by flatduck on Monday 5th of March 2012 01:40:38 PM

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

RacerRick..that's about what I've been experincing.
Oh... a "couple of months" will turn into 4, then 6 and maybe more.

So for us "cheapos" who have been paying $10k+ for a paint job and then waiting forever becuase our money is not as good as the insurance company's money....I guess we'll have to settle for Macco. (And yeah, you bet your a$$ I want a perfect job for that kinda change. I had to work pretty hard and make sacrifices to save up that kind of coin.)

I think it comes down to this (and this is pure speculation): The time and material used on doing a full paintjob is simply far more expensive than the time and materials used on doing collision repairs. So for the same amount of time and same amount of materials one could make more money by doing collision work. It comes down to money and making more of it.

(Luckily my toys are painted, now. And for the frustrations I have sited in this thread I will never again do another "old" car. Everyone of the 7 cars I've done over 20 years had the same issue....it always got stuck at the body shop. Engine done. Upholstry's done, transmission's done...but the car's not painted yet.....)

One day I'm gonna need to have my cars repainted and will have to cross this bridge...I dread it. And because of this, I may even consider giving up the hobby completly at that time.

Sad.

Vic Brincat

-- Edited by cadmanof50s on Monday 5th of March 2012 02:14:54 PM

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

I've tried twice to right some thoughts on the bodyshops side of things but deleted them before posting.... lets just say it ain't all gravy on their side of things either. There are reasons why old cars aren't jumped at as far as wanting to paint them. Perfection ain't cheap but the guys that expect it are. And that's all I'm going to say about that. And since I don't really know anyone on here(other than a couple troublemakers who know who they are) I ain't pointing fingers. Just saying..........$0.02

89lxstanger · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

slab wrote:
I've tried twice to right some thoughts on the bodyshops side of things but deleted them before posting.... lets just say it ain't all gravy on their side of things either. There are reasons why old cars aren't jumped at as far as wanting to paint them. Perfection ain't cheap but the guys that expect it are. And that's all I'm going to say about that. And since I don't really know anyone on here(other than a couple troublemakers who know who they are) I ain't pointing fingers. Just saying..........$0.02

worded very politely if ya ask me and so damn true

30-S6 · NORTH BAY, ONT

flatduck wrote:
what price is consider being cheap for a paint job ..............up north there ain t to many resto shop..............as experience i also seen body shop that won t touch and old car unless they do a perfect job ........even if all you want is just get it painted...............and there excuse is cause you ll be using it for cruise night ..........that there name is going to show so they want quality work to show for there own publicity

-- Edited by flatduck on Monday 5th of March 2012 01:40:38 PM

BAD NEWS travels fast ... a nice job is noticed but a crappy job !!... everyone knows about it...

The reason for the price being so high is the price of supplys $700 + price of equipment+ disposal of waste fee+ the ministry of invironment stepped in and now shops have to be "Dust Free" invironments. so + air exchange units + when your furnace reaches up to 140*F in less than 10 min and dries a paint job in 20 min, there is a huge gas bill. + don't forget the guy who gets payed 25-30 / hr, Oh and the manager gets payed also.....+ cut and buff +++

That's why.......

-- Edited by 30-S6 on Monday 5th of March 2012 05:08:58 PM

Chris Stapley · CAMPBELLFORD, ONT

Vic, call my brother in Campbellford if that's not too huge a trip. 705-653-3773 he's been a resto shop , does collision work occasionally and does plenty of rust repair stuff all the time because the "busy" shops don't know how to do this sort of thing anymore....
His name is Steve Stapley...

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

don t forget the sand paper and masking tape and primer it adds up$$$

-- Edited by flatduck on Monday 5th of March 2012 07:30:23 PM

RacerRick · TORONTO, ONT

I am trying to find a shop that will just spray my 57'. Impossible. They all want the car for several monthes with 10K+ estimates.

The body work will be done, and the car delivered in epoxy primer - just do final cleanup and spray. I might just have to bite the bullet and spray it myself. Or go to maaco!

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

ya maaco.........wtgggg i know a guy over here that even after he had a professional do all the preparation on is 61 Chrysler he still had to pay 3000.00 to get it painted..............i don t think that s is cheap $$$.........i can still remember when i was 14 years my dad had is bodyshop and i seen doing a complete paint job .for $125.00 dollars

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

and that was in and out in less than 2 days

30-S6 · NORTH BAY, ONT

flatduck wrote:
may be a good reason to go ratrod style, big savingsssssss 10 k right at start no painting to do

Don't kid yourself alot of these guys are soaking everything they have into thier Rats. Faux patina costs money too...

-- Edited by 30-S6 on Monday 5th of March 2012 09:59:06 PM

chevyboy · TORONTO, ONTARIO

Doesnt the old painters saying go something along the lines of:
I can paint it
cheap
good
fast
now pick any two...

VirgilHilts · BELWOOD, ONT

chevyboy wrote:
Doesnt the old painters saying go something along the lines of:
I can paint it
cheap
good
fast
now pick any two...

That applies to any job! biggrin

My other favourite is" There is never enough time to do the job right but there is always enough time to do it over"

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

well myself i can t justify putting 10 k on body work and paint ......... 1 it is way out of my budget 2 if the car ain t going to be a 45,000 car it is just stupid..........so i guess a cheap maaco sounds like a pretty good for option...........will start a new class call cheapo- restomod........

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

may be a good reason to go ratrod style, big savingsssssss 10 k right at start no painting to do

workin class · FINCH, ONT

45 bucks of Canadian tire car paint will do my car.

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

lolllllllllllllllll

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

may be i ll do like years ago get the paint roller

workin class · FINCH, ONT

o.k. IM budgeting 100.00 for the complete job we will see how close I get in the spring.

89lxstanger · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

sadly its hte cheapo guys that seem to get the most pissedd off when i turn down their job,
when im doing a quality job it takes time 200 hours is on the low side
i did my brothers mustang a few years backwouls have been a 15-20k paint job
car was completely dismantled there is not a single tape line on the car

those that say well the body will be done so just spray it........ no one ever asks who did the body they asked who painted it and it is HE that takes the blame for it after.... and if it starts to rust or sink i highly doubt the guiy that did it will admit to it. i wont paint over someone elses body work its no offence to those that do their own work its to keep my rep up, im trying to build a name for myself and doing poor work wont get me there a good job takes time time is money....to do a complete car on the high end thats like 5 or 6 collision jobs in turn making the shop more money from the collision work..
i do lots of side work from my house and side work is cheaper for those looking the problem is finding quality from the garage guys, im about to start on a buick gs from the house its is MINT rust free car from arizona minor straightening dents etc ZERO rust i will charge 4500-6000 in time plus materials and ill have 200 hours into it easily, that includes cutting and polishing the car in that price. at my work thats 15-20k to start same job same guy doing it

this in no way is to pi ss anyone off its just a way to try to see where our end is coming from

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

Again ...this ain't personal. Just a discussion of issues relating to body and paint.
I got screwed by a bodyshop on my first car when I was 16. I decided then I would learn how and do my own. I can"t afford or justify a 10k paint job either. But if I might...I'll break down a 10k paint job.
10000 before tax.
-2500 materials(paint, clear, primer, expoxy/etch,sandpaper, etc, Too High?? Maybe, maybe not)
---------
7500/$60.00 door rate=125 man hrs

125hrs
-30hrs cut and buff
-12hrs in the booth(washing, papering, tacking, arranging parts, painting, clearing etc)
-15hrs final blocking
-15hrs 2nd blocking and prime
-15hrs 1st blocking and prime
------------------
38hrs left for door dings, misalligned panels, stone chips, removing trim,bezels, other miscellaneous parts-door handles etc, also jambs, weatherstrip removal.
No body work is on this quote. No panel replacement and aftermarket junk fitting. No glass removing. I'm sure there is more I could list. But that's not a paint job. That's body and paint . Every quote is car specific and again "perfect for this price??". This is a general thought based on the" Magic 10k " figure that bodyshops throw out at car guys with classics. Maybe I'm out to lunch but it's still just my $0.02. Maybe I should delete this one too??

30-S6 · NORTH BAY, ONT

Seem to me that the guys with a bodyshop background understand how and why the price is so high and why it takes as long as it does......why do electricians charge so much ??? see I'm sure an electrician will be all over that..
It is what it is..if you don't like it then learn how to do it yourself...build yourself a paint booth and have at 'er. Then You can paint cars all day long for $100 a pop....Just emagine how rich you'll be at the end of the month.........................

89lxstanger · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

AMEN to that....... its is what it is says it best it takes what it takes,,,, i refuse to cut corners and yes over the years it has lost more than one job for me and i am sure will lose more haha ah well

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

poncho62 wrote:
I delivered 2 gallons of clear coat with the hardener to a body shop the other day...Their cost was $1200.....Supplies aint cheap

And if you are going to "cut and Buff" a car..you will need at least one of those gallons on the car and that's for a Camaro, Mustang sized car. Some of these other Big cars would be more. We've used the better part of a gallon on the Camaro project just in the jambs, under hood and trunk! Paint ain't cheap either. My cost on a gallon of "waterbase" and "activator" was $500.00/gallon and waterbase doesn't mix one to one like the old base. Most of the new colour are very low hiding and a gallon probably ain't going to do it either. Camaro project with all the jambs, under hood , trunk etc. we have gallon and a half on hand just to be safe and since it is solvent based paint ...it mixes up at 3 gallons and because of it being low hiding we are putting it over white base which we have a gallon mixed on hand for that. Adds up quick.

-- Edited by slab on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 06:30:05 AM

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

i see what kind of special jobs some do on ratrods , look beautiful but for me a ratrod better show rust and originality ...........if it overdone it becomes the same as an over restored muscle or classic............but if they do it it is cause they got the money..... i can t see anyone getting there money back ...............just like that 10 k job once it is on the car ,it won t make any difference if you paid 4000. 6000 .or 20,000.........you will be lucky to get 3000.00 more on the worth of the appraisal

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

and i hope we are just discusing, i never said that i wanted to learn how to paint.......... i left a job that was paying 30.00 an hour to retire i sure ain t going to paint cars a my age for one hundred $$$$$$$$$$$$

workin class · FINCH, ONT

I will paint my own but would never try to paint some one elses car thats what pros are for not back yard hacks like me.

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

I had a guy say to me after hearing my door rate"are you worth that much?" and I simply said...."they charge me $65.00/hr to fix my snowblower and you want me to fix your car for how much??" My door rate is alot less than $65.

workin class · FINCH, ONT

when it comes to my old cars time is not a cost how much does one get paid to watch T.V. or drink beer its free time. No cost to me. Its a hobby first and fore most. As for expensive paint I used to work in a body shop that produced big $$ show Corvettes thats the reason I started to like flat black and beaters. To many attitudes with the look at me shiny paint crowd. Like I said before cheap CTC paint a few hours of play time some sand paper it will look better than it does now. Options John Deere black is still not to expensive. A $10.000 paint job is obserd to me and a fact why I would rather have a car with less than $5.000 total still as much fun and not as much worry.

-- Edited by workin class on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 07:26:46 AM

30-S6 · NORTH BAY, ONT

workin class wrote:
o.k. IM budgeting 100.00 for the complete job we will see how close I get in the spring.

Please do keep everyone in the loop, and take plenty of pictures..

remember to log all your expences.

my guess is you'll have your budget spent on a handful of sandpaper and couple hours labour. time is money...

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

i don t know if the guy still gave you is car to work on .................but i know what price i would charge him after a comment like that .........or he would had a free black eye .......and i would tell him i don t know if i m worth that much ...............but that punch was for free no charge

chevyboy · TORONTO, ONTARIO

30-S6, The differance between electrical and paint work is if you screw up a paint job you house doesnt burn to the ground.

Again nothing against anyone. You pay for what you get. If you want something done right by someone who has the knowladge and experiance it usually isnt cheap.

Im a big advocate of learning to do as much as you can by yourself, because im cheep like that. Ive done some stuff on a coupple friends cars because they paid for the supplies and agreed not to murder me if I messed up. It can be a lot of fun, just like everything in life do it right the first time and dont cut corners.

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

I delivered 2 gallons of clear coat with the hardener to a body shop the other day...Their cost was $1200.....Supplies aint cheap

INDIAN RIVER, ONT

The bodyshop business has changed so much from what it used to be (like everything else in the automotive industry). Years ago I worked at an automotive supply shop delivering at first & then on the counter. There used to be a lot of small bodyshops around here and more people used to fix their cars up...now it's just get another car and the small shops have pretty much vanished (here anyway).

I do all my own bodywork & painting, not a pro by any means but I just like doing it. My 57 had been painted with a roller when I got it, green & black with lots of runs. The PO had started sanding it & putting on primer.

lakefield auto wreckers 2011 144.JPG

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

No way!!! would I spend or put 10G's in a paint job on a "driver" 1 st. trip down the road & you get a stone chip or "chips"!!!! I would be like my friend in Oshawa w/41 Graham & be terrified to drive it for 'fear' of ruining the paint!!! Like my signature says "if I can't DRIVE" it I don't want it" I'm hoping to have around 3G's in body prep & paint on 52 not counting the previous "metal work" I've done to floors & 1/4's

RacerRick · TORONTO, ONT

I think I am going to try to paint the 55. The 55' will be a single stage red which should be easy to paint - but its a wagon, so lots of car to cover.

The 57' will be a base/clear black, so I might get a pro to spray it.

30-S6 · NORTH BAY, ONT

I think 10k is for an over the top show type paint job the average scuff and paint should run about 2500-3000.... in my area anyway. Or guys like me will grab our paint guns and go to your shop and spray your paint over your work for $200 then walk away. I think that is what some people are looking for.
For those type of guys. join the local car club, Someone is bound to help out probably even barter a paint job off...I do it all the time..

As far as the singlestage red, Red paint tends to be transparent, and singlestage red fades. somthing to keep in mind.

-- Edited by 30-S6 on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 06:15:25 PM

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

well i only in Sudbury ain t that far and i can drive the car i don t have ship........and if i want i just put the car hauler being the motor home or my truck that s easy ..it may cost me 300.00 in gas with my truck ,the motor home lol more like double the price but i would go for a holiday trip with the wife ...........i ll even have money left for beer lolllllllllllllll

-- Edited by flatduck on Wednesday 7th of March 2012 07:51:36 PM

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

30-S6 wrote:
As far as I know the single stage colours and the clears stay the same it's the base that has changed to a water base to cut down on the (volitile organic chemicals) V.O.C 's ....
I haven't used the base yet but my supplier tells me I can still use it at home. still have to use some sort of device to get air blowing over the car, but a little tip is to use alcohol to speed up the evaporation time... but when your doing your own stuff you can let it sit and dry overnight and whack the clear on it later...

The secondary paint lines are still solvent based. The paint that they recondmend for completes only. Don't know if the link will work...

http://dpcprd.asp.dupont.com/bowstreet5/webengine/dpc/common/Controller/Action!_pageDispatcher/InnerModel!dpc/modules/Login/OuterModel!dpc/common/Controller/InnerAction!visitorAction

Go to "products" at top right of the page then on the list at the left go to Nason. It should show a list of products. Go to Ful-base3.5 VOC solvent base.

-- Edited by slab on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 09:24:59 PM

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Some very good info posted here about the ACTUAL cost of body/paint work.

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

RacerRick wrote:
I think I am going to try to paint the 55. The 55' will be a single stage red which should be easy to paint - but its a wagon, so lots of car to cover.

The 57' will be a base/clear black, so I might get a pro to spray it.

I would go with base clear red. Look at say a Nason by Dupont, Omni by PPG , the base is easy to put on and the clear is not too much harder than Single stage to spray. With clear you can fix your mistakes or dust easily. These products are still solent based and priced not too bad and probably not much more than a single stage.