As I mentioned earlier, I very much appreciate you posting the link to the MOE site regarding emissions and older cars. The link seems to address everything (as far as I can tell) and also includes info regarding crate engines which was a rather "iffy" area with lots of talk about whether or not they were even legal. Very good info.

People, please keep in mind these are the LAWS as they are written today. Seeker didn't write them and he is not enforcing them ... he is simply stating (as I see it) that this info should/will help people who are interested in complying with the laws as they are "written today".

69SS pointed us to a site that has facts regarding this issue ... facts are good.

Quote from Seeker ... "Now everyone get out there, fix your emissions if you need to, and get on with enjoying your car!!!". I don't understand what the big deal is regarding that comment. If you don't want to deal with the threat of expensive tickets then "fix your emissions" ... If you feel the law should be changed you have the option to fight for that change ... however, until the law IS actually changed we are required to comply with the law as it is presently written.

Everyone has options here ... you can either "fix" your car by adding the emissions equipment required by either the year of the engine or the year of the car ... you can swap in an early engine block that predates emission controls ... you can drive your vehicle as-is with the worry/risk of getting expensive tickets ... or you can park your car (IF it is illegal based on the present laws) until the laws get changed ... your choice.

I am NOT saying the law shouldn't be changed, it would be great if it got changed, but until that happens .... the law is the law.

-- Edited by Rusty Nuts on Friday 27th of July 2012 02:43:30 PM

-- Edited by Rusty Nuts on Friday 27th of July 2012 02:44:42 PM

-- Edited by Rusty Nuts on Friday 27th of July 2012 02:45:19 PM

Emissions requirements for vehicles licensed in Ontario

Vehicles are a major source of air pollution. That’s why Ontario has Drive Clean, a program in place in most parts of the province that requires vehicles to have their emissions systems tested.

As well, provincial officers, employed by the Ministry of the Environment, patrol highways on alert for smoking tailpipes.

But, no matter where you live, whether you’ve had a Drive Clean test, or what kind of vehicle you drive, you are subject to Ontario’s emissions standards. Here’s what you need to know.

For vehicles, registered or driven in Ontario, the following applies:

• Any and all emissions equipment installed on the car when manufactured must be in tact, maintained and functioning as intended throughout the vehicle’s life. You can replace emission control systems, devices, or parts as long as the replacements do the equivalent job as the original.
• You cannot legally operate a vehicle if it emits visible emissions for more than 15 seconds in any five-minute period.
• All vehicles must meet or exceed the emission standards for that model year of vehicle, as set out in the Drive Clean Guide. Vehicles built during or before 1980 must meet the standards set out in the category “1980 and earlier”.

The Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario was asked by the Ontario Ministry of the Environment to participate in a process to help draw up a plain English interpretation of the existing emissions’ regulations as they apply to specialty vehicles in Ontario and “hot rods” in particular. SVAO met with the MOE and provided many rounds of comments back and forth trying to come up with something that both sides could agree upon and that a regular person could hopefully understand.  We know that most of our members feel that all 20+ year old vehicles should be excluded from all emissions testing and inspections (other than visible pollution) but that will have to be approached from a political perspective.

Most automotive hobbyists would like to be able to find out what is expected of their vehicles from a MOE point of view in respect to current rules and regulationsso that the hobbyist can drive a legal vehicle. These rules have been in effect and enforced since 1998 when the Drive Clean program was drawn up, although many have only recently heard about them through news of some roadside inspections. The SVAO has seen the MOE statistics for these inspections. Based on this information, it does not seem that specialty vehicles are being targeted out of proportion to their registration percentages, despite many of the “urban legends” you may have heard or read about. However the number of failures in these vehicle inspections does seem to be higher than the norm, so that is why it is important to find out from the following material what is expected of your particular ride.

Here’s the link to the MOE just released guidelines and if you want to use it there is a link to this site at www.svao.org

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/environment/en/category/drive_clean/STDPROD_098041.html

For a non-altered (stock) vehicle, the regulations basically expect it to have all factory emissions equipment present and operating. The situation changes for “hot rods”. It is important to realize that the government’s definition of a “hot rod” is not always what most hobbyists think of when they hear that term.  Please check carefully the government’s definition of a “hot rod” as found in the chart.

In the end, realize that this material has been put forth to help the hobbyist live within the existing rules and regulations. Not everyone will be happy with all situations, but at least the correct information on how to make your vehicle legal from the emissions’ point of view is now out there.

The material from the MOE also provides contact information which can be used for specific advice. Please make use of this valuable source but realize that conducting such dialogue in a civilized manner will be what probably gets you an answer (and also help the SVAO in future negotiations with the MOE and the MTO).

I appreciate some of the reasoned responses that have been posted on this forum from people who took the time to contact the MOE and find out what was expected, as opposed to some whose sources seem to often be sixth hand information from the friend of a buddy two counties over.

As always, the SVAO can be contacted through our website www.svao.org and I can be contacted at (905)649-2664.

Chris Whillans (SVAO chairman)

the way i read it here is the only defence we have is to have an older car or truck with an older engine, pre 75 if its a gm.  as they state a 1935 ford witha 68 chevy engine is pretty much ok except the enforcment goons may make you get an e test, and thats their out, it will of course fail because there will be no cats or anything since they even state that the 68 engine had no emmision controls and the 35 ford had no emmision stuff either.  i think what is being missed here is the true nature ofthe moe as a whole, they are a revenue collector and they have marching orders to bring in the money, thus they more or less will harrass us and keep doing so unless we make a stand.  these pricks pull people oer and dig until they find something.  as well they are ussualy pretty arrogant and abusive.  im not against clean air im simply opposed to overselous enforcement and abuse by this government agency.  i have always felt that when the mto pull you over, if your e brake works that should be as far as the the inspection goes, instead they dig and keep going until they find something.  if i was black i would call it profiling which is exactley what it is, they nail us becase we choose to drive old vehicles, i think its my right to not put myself in debt for 5 years + because i dont want to own a new car or truck.

dualquadpete wrote:

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I'd like to know what proof they {MOE] will accept on when engine swap was done?? I'm almost 100% sure my 52 was done before Jan 1999 but can't "nail' it. My Ont. Used car pkg. shows 3 owners all changing ownership of car on the same day, then 1 previous owner before the fellow I bought it from [Mike] Now Mike has traced at least 4 owners before the fellow he got it from & earlyst owner son said he remembered his dad buying car & it did have the V8 & frame swap done then & he's sure it was 1998 but dads passed on. I guess none of them put car into their name [no taxes paid] When I registered the car in my name, I swore out something at lic. office that a previous owner had installed the V8 [that was in 2009] now I wonder if that will help or hurt?? Seems Mike & I & guy he got it from, were the only "honest" owners that actually put the ownership in our names, 3 owners on UCPkg were all back in the 80's

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 See how much bull**** this stupid law is causing !! Give John O'Toole a call !!

He phoned me last Friday and I explained to him what part of the law I wanted changed. I told him that emission controls must be for the year of vehicle, not engine. He's a car enthusiast, but not a hard core car guy like most of us, so he doesn't understand  specifically what we want.

That's why it's up to all of us to tell him.

Scrapping emission compliance for 20 years and older vehicles will never fly, and he agrees with that because there's too many "green" people in his way that hate old cars and would block any kind of legislation that would allow us to remove emission controls.

Let set our sights for something that actually may be achievable like using the year of the vehicle as the year needed for emission compliance. This will remove any gray areas like the example given above by Pete.

“do we know what the standards are for that category? Can someone post that info if they have it”

Here’s a link to MOE’s “Drive Clean Guide”. I’m guessing that for most, if not all the vehicles we’re concerned with here, the actual tailpipe test would be a simple two-speed idle test and not a dyno test, especially starting next year when the program changes to OBD testing and it will be either OBD or two speed idle testing from then on - no more dynos. The two speed test only measures hydrocarbons (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO), not nitrogen oxides (NOX), and it can be done anywhere that a multigas analyzer is available (in other words, not just in the Drive Clean program areas, since as far as I can determine, the tail pipe emission standards apply province wide, not just in the program areas here in the south/east/west. It’s just the Drive Clean program that is specific to certain geographic areas.) In the Guide, the specs for pre-1981 vehicles are in table #8 for the two speed idle test and in table #9 for the dyno tests on these same vehicles, where and when that method is used. I’ve also attached a short table that I created after dissecting the Guide a bit, to show the 1980 emission limits for the two speed test and for the dyno tests.

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@ene/@resources/documents/resource/stdprod_080001.pdf

“Does this now mean that all cars need to meet the 1980 standards?”

The way I read the Guide, yes – a restored Model T would have to meet the 1980 standards if it was tested! This isn’t anything new, it’s been in the regulation forever. While the 1980 standards are pretty lenient (VERY lenient by today’s standards), I wonder if those old flatheads could pass, and if not, what then?

Actually, I’m not sure all this issue of being sent to a Drive Clean facility for testing is any real threat to rodders or just a scare tactic to jolt everyone into compliance.

Regardless of how lenient the 1980 standards are, if MOE arbitrarily decides that you haven’t proven that your engine was installed before 1999, all of this is out the window since they will then use the age of your engine to determine your compliance. I have a real concern over this policy – and that’s all it is, a policy, not law. It’s not written into their Act or Regulation (although such language does exist in other provincial Acts and Regulations) so I think it could be successfully challenged in court if a lawyer pushes hard enough.

On another topic, the “Big Book” that MOE uses during their roadside inspections is the “MOTOR Emission Control Systems Application” manual (this info came from discussions between SVAO and their MOE contacts) and a new version is published each year. Older editions are available on eBay for about $25, and I know that one poster has already ordered a 2006 copy. So, you might want to check with your local garages or Drive Clean centres to see if they have these books and if you can use them to determine what equipment your car (or engine) needs. I’m not sure about the Canadian content in these manuals but at least it’s a start.

OK, I’m off the rant box – your turn!

Beachcat wrote:

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do we know what the standards are for that category? Can someone post that info if they have it?

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 There is no single standard for this. It is different for each vehicle.

The drive clean operator is asked by the system if the car is a "hot rod or grey market vehicle"  after he has entered your 17 digit VIN. They system then defines the required standards for that particular vehicle.

 If you car is 1980 or older, there is no 17 digit VIN for it, therefore there is no way to test it on the current Drive Clean equipement.

This is not a Drive Clean issue we have going on here.

Hey Molten...your tag line killed me...

The trouble with quotes over the Internet, is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln

...amongst this pain in the ass topic, you cracked me up for a good 10 minutes. Thanks!

Chris

A:  This vehicle must:

• meet the visible emission standards
• the catalytic converter requirements do not apply
• the emission control equipment requirements do not apply
• meet the emissions standards for 1980 and earlier model year vehicles if a provincial officer asks for a Drive Clean test. Note that although emissions control equipment is not required, without it, the car would likely fail the Drive Clean test.

Is it just me, or is this statement the most contradictory statement you've ever heard.

So, let me get this straight. The above statement says, that absolutely NO emission equipment is required to be compliant, but, you probably won't pass an E-test if requested and therefore would have your vehicle removed from the road.  How can you be compliant and not pass unless you install emission equipment. I'm sorry Mr. Minister of the Environment, but, it's not hard to see why people are upset and are taking the opinion that this is a cash grab.

July 26,2012 when they posted the language in layman's terms should be the engine installed before date and not 1999. Hobbiests that designed, built and completed their vehicles between 1999 and July 26,2012 will be unjustly penalised financially. How were we suppose to know the "rules" when even they (MOE) had no clear understanding of what was allowable and what was not. Backdating to 1999 is dirty pool.

	layman's terms:
	To put something in layman's terms is to describe a complex or technical issue using words and terms that the average individual (someone without professional training in the subject area) can understand, so that they may comprehend the issue to some degree.                                          HI JOE

dualquadpete wrote:

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Old Guy 71, if you look at the date that the engine was installed in 35 Ford, you will see it's 1995!!! Any engine swap before 1999, does not need the emm. equipment!! If done after 99 then the vehicle has to comply & goes by the yr. of engine, Not fair, as I see it, but 'thems the rules"!!!!!

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 Pete, I see all that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. It's the statement in red, in my post above. How can they make a ruling, that, by law, you don't need any equipment, yet if they want an E-test, they claim you'll probably fail without the emission equipment.