Engine swap

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Engine swap

JPB · AYLMER, ONT

cadmanof50s wrote:
I am installing an 1980 350 Chev block into a 1968 Camaro.
It is a 4-bolt main that is being rebuilt as a 383.
The block is a "010" that came from a 1 ton truck. (Sorry that number does not mean a lot to me).
The '68 Camaro basicaly had a PCV valve for it's emmissions. Will I have an issue (Emission regulation- wise) using this "newer" block in my '68 Chev?
Vic
I would want to be ready when the E Cops come to town,I would look for these block casting #3914678, 3932386, 3956618 or the 3892657.These can be made 302/327/350 with the Correct crank/pistons.Then all you need is the year appropriate/mandatory emmissions sh&t. john

-- Edited by NOVACLONE on Saturday 24th of November 2012 08:22:22 AM

-- Edited by NOVACLONE on Saturday 24th of November 2012 08:25:34 AM

SKAR · PETERBOROUGH, ONT

Yes, you will need all the emissions equipment that was used on the engine that was on the truck it came out of.

Or whatever the moe sees fit.

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

delete

-- Edited by 427CARL on Saturday 24th of November 2012 10:49:45 AM

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Unless the block was 'decked" & frt. number on pad has been machined off!! Then you can "CLAIM that the 3910010 block is a 68 327" as that # covered a few engines & yrs.BUT they say it's up to you to prove it court?? How? I still can't figure out, & thats their out, & you get your wallet out!!!

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

Isnt the date code cast somewhere on the bellhousing too?

http://www.nastyz28.com/sbchevy/sblock.php#cdate

Casting Date
Small block casting date is located on driver side rear of block on flange forward of bellhousing. Big block on the right side of engine above the oil pan rails.

Casting Date Example: E038 - (E = Month, 03 = Day, 8 = Last digit of model year (1978)).

Month: A = Jan, B = Feb, C = Mar, D = Apr, E = May, F = Jun, G = July, H = Aug, I = Sep, J = Oct, K = Nov, L = Dec

That said, I would be inclined to take the chance.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

dualquadpete wrote:
Unless the block was 'decked" & frt. number on pad has been machined off!! Then you can "CLAIM that the 3910010 block is a 68 327" as that # covered a few engines & yrs.BUT they say it's up to you to prove it court?? How? I still can't figure out, & thats their out, & you get your wallet out!!!

Here we go again !!

It's a 1980 block, and will always be a 1980 block !! Decking the block and removing the stamping numbers is not goint to fool anyone that it's anything other than a smog motor. The casting number as well as other visual clues will be a dead give away.

Here is the proper answer to the original question;

Yes, you will have issues running that engine, unless you meet all required emission controls that was originally installed on that engine.

If you want MY opinion !! Don't use it, because it's just not worth the hassle both legally or financially by having to buy all the other parts you'll need.

DaveM · ONTARIO

cadmanof50s wrote:

The block is a "010" that came from a 1 ton truck. (Sorry that number does not mean a lot to me).

If someone told you it was a "010" block, they may be refering to the "high nickel" block. Which may or may not be in the casting number.

Find the correct full casting number, and if they are still there, the stamped block ID numbers on the pad in front of the passenger side head.

What side is the dipstick on?

henrys57wagon · WOODLAWN, ONT

Vic, are you able to look at what emissions equ were on the 1T or get the factory specs? A lot of heavy duty trucks did not have to meet the same standards as the 1/2-3/4T trucks, so it may not of had much on it. The big question is weither they are able to see down the back of the block. I would have the Camaro's engine ID # restamped onto the ID pad and have the engine look like a 68 visually.

tc · ST THOMAS, ONT

I think the way to fly is 1966 engine or older. I know they are getting harder to find but they are still out there. I am building a custom 1962 Nova wagon for a customer and have an LS1 and 4L60e combination. Have decided to scrap that idea and have gone with a 283 (1965 vintage) and 700r. By the time we make and install the fancy engine cover no one will know whats under there (and really won't care).

JPB · AYLMER, ONT

henrys57wagon wrote:
Vic, are you able to look at what emissions equ were on the 1T or get the factory specs? A lot of heavy duty trucks did not have to meet the same standards as the 1/2-3/4T trucks, so it may not of had much on it. The big question is weither they are able to see down the back of the block. I would have the Camaro's engine ID # restamped onto the ID pad and have the engine look like a 68 visually.

Thats a good idea also.If the E Cops are 'schooled' in Chevys,they would know that a 3970010 casting is 1969 & up block. It all depends on how 'smart' they are and know where to look/see.

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Thanks folks.
Wow...what a mess...I could express a lot personal opinions on this ..but won't do any good at this point.

For what its worth..here is the rest of the info from the block.

Stamped code is TMR T41533945 K04 25
cast code on SIDE (pass) of block is 4 D 22 also an A8
Engine Casting number 3970010

It would seem to me that the smartest thing to do is look for a block that was originally installed in a 1973 or earlier.
I think 73 was the last year that had no EGR, Air-pump or cats...is that correct?

So with that said, if anyone has or knows of such a block that is rebuildable up to .040 over, then I'm in the market.

Thanks!!

Vic

DaveM · ONTARIO

TMR is 1980 truck and van

3970010 is '69 to '79 350ci car and truck, or '68 327 A (A-body?)

What side is the oil dipstick on?

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Thanks Dave,

not sure about which side the dipstick is on, as the block is sitting at the rebuilders. Will find out.
We do know it's a 4 bolt, which leads me to believe that it is out of a truck as opposed to an A-body.

Vic

flatduck · SUDBURY, ONT

what a stupid law that is

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Ok. I solved the problem....(I think).

By a sheer miracle, (and thanks to Kijiji), I located and purchased a 350 4-bolt main block that was built in 1969 and was originally installed in a 1969 Camaro SS.

It has a casting that was ONLY made for a 1969 model and the serial number/VIN stamping confirms it was used in a 1969 car with a manual transmission.

So if, in 2012 I install a 1969 motor into a 1968 model car year and have the required, functioning PCV hooked up to my air breather (as the manual indicates), am I going to be okay with the MOE guys? No CATs, no EGR, no airpump.

(From what I know, only a PCV system was required for '69 emission. Does anyone know if this is correct?)....

It cost me $500 bucks, but I believe the unique -'69 only casting was worth the money.

The other threads on MOE were (to say the least), interesting..and informative.

BTW, here are the numbers:

Casting 3932388

Engin number stamping: 791102916 T0927HQ

I read this as built in Tanwanda Plant on Sept. 27, 1969......I was turning 12 years old the next day...

Vic

-- Edited by cadmanof50s on Sunday 25th of November 2012 08:31:54 PM

-- Edited by cadmanof50s on Sunday 25th of November 2012 08:32:33 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

flatblack55delivery wrote:
I thought the air pump was to help the cats get hot enough to do there job .If true why would there be an air pump on a car that didn't come with cats? Ed

They didn't have cats back then, so by adding more oxygen in the exhaust more unburned hydrocarbons would in theory burn before coming out the tailpipe.

edit; DaveM beat me to it. If i recall, the 69 ZL1 Camaro had an air pump.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Sunday 25th of November 2012 09:26:17 PM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Yes !! You're good to go !! I'm a Mopar guy, but I do know that some Chevs had air pumps in 69, but I don't think the 350s did. Hopefully someone with more experience will post on this.

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Thanks guys.

Pint, been doing more research. In fact....(and someone please correct me if I am wrong), the Camaro SS even came with factory instralled headers!...may have been the Z28....or maybe the Big Blocks....but I beleive it was an option......???

Vic

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

I thought the air pump was to help the cats get hot enough to do there job .If true why would there be an air pump on a car that didn't come with cats? Ed

DaveM · ONTARIO

They pump fresh air, oxygen, into the exhaust port to help burn off any left over combustibles.

This '69 Camaro has one.

http://www.collectioncar.com/detailed.php?ad=27573&category_id=1&lang=en

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Pint and a Pound wrote:
"Factory" headers sounds more like a dealer installed option to me and not an option available directly from the factory.

This is where a dealer would install headers etc on a brand new car before delivery to the purchaser.

I actually have a magazine from 68 that might show some pics of what the new 69's looked like bone stock.

Hemi43 might find that magazine interesting for another reason ... they show a guy going to the factory in a station wagon and an open trailer and picking up a brand new Hemi Dart. There is also an ad in the same magazine for a Baldwin Motion (I think) 427 Camaro guaranteed to run 11.50's ... ahhh, the good ole days ...

Yup !! Good ol' days !! Actually, I was still crapping in diapers in the 60's.

Hey Pint; where in Ontario are you from?

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

I just checked the 1969 Factory Manual...and it clearly states (thank God!) that teh A.I.R. pump was used with manual transmissions only.

I am double checking this with the Camaro Club Restoration guys.

So...a new wrinkle....I have an automatic. ...!!

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Thanks guys. Ed

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

I remember some 69/70 GMs having air pumps and some without...My 70 S396 Chevelle didnt have one.
I think the theory was to pump air into the exhaust to dilute the bad gasses.....just more flow, probably didnt do frig all for emissions

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

Not to be rude, BUT - when I spoke to Mr Lalonde at the MOE - he clearly said they are not really looking at "blocks" and he very clearly said none of his officers are in a position to get under or over a "block to see wha tthe numbers are.

If there is an alleged issue - the car in question would be sent to the MOE yard for inspection. And I will repeat again - they are not looking at blocks so getting sent to a yard for inspection for that reason isnt happening

Mr Lalonde was not aware of anyone who has been ticketed or had thier car impounded solely for a "block" issue

They are looking at the complete motor swap LS efi motors n such running around without emmisions stuff. They are looking at the 73 and newer vehicles with the cats missing etc.

They did not seem concerned with anything to do with a "block"

You guys are far too paranoid!!!!!!!!!!!! period.

And please dont tell me about your mothers sisters best friend who got raped roadside by the mean ol MOE Police. It didnt happen according to Mr Lalonde. Anyone wants to go down this road again - Post a pic of the tickets for all to see so we can see what the ticket(s) were actually for. After talking to Mr Lalonde, I bet there isnt one anywhere for a block or missing emmisions related to a block!!!! Period.

Mr Lalonde also said that he knows block numbers especially GM block numbers, have been reused through various decades and is precisely why his guys are not and I repeat are NOT looking on the roadside for block numbers.

So stop already with the " The Sky is falling" routines.

Buddy - build your motor and get on with enjoying your car.

-- Edited by Seeker1056 on Monday 26th of November 2012 04:14:26 PM

-- Edited by Seeker1056 on Monday 26th of November 2012 04:16:17 PM

henrys57wagon · WOODLAWN, ONT

Vic, did the 69 block not already come installed in the Camaro when you bought it? wink, wink. Who can say it was or it wasn't.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

I really don't think Vic is going to have any issues even if his block was installed in front of a standard transmission.
I know "technically" it should have an air pump if it was originally standard, but I don't think the MOE is going to dig that deep into the gray area. I think their main focus is stuff like early 80s pickups with all emission controls ripped off. I think most guys will get looked over with a fine toothed comb if they start giving the officer attitude on the side of the road, so you have to give a bit of respect to get a bit of respect.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Pint and a Pound wrote:

Hemi43 ... I live in Ajax

My parents live in Ajax right by the hospital. Let me know next time you go out for wings, and DaveM and I will join you for a couple of cold ones.

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Thanks to all who responded. Really appreciate your help.

I can't begin to tell you how upset this whole issue has got me. Like 99% of all the other hobbists, I just want a nice old car to drive. I'm old, I like cars and enjoying driving something a little different than most. I'm not out to pollute the environment or break any laws.

So I just spent my entire weekend, locating an engine, driving half-way accross Southern Ontario to pick it up...spent $500 bucks plus gas and my time...and now I still may have an issue.

I am now at the point where I just can't frett anymore over this technicality anymore. I'm not good at being dishonest. And changing the block numbers from HQ to HO (which makes the car an automatic) is EXTREMLY tempting....but makes me feel like a criminal more so than not installing an AIR pump.

There are so many better ways that the Ministry of the Environment can spend their time doing meaningful work to help clean our world. I must admit, they truly have their heads up their ass on this one. Surely, reason and sanity will ultimately prevail.

My Camaro has headers and chances are it won't pass anyway. I will now just have to take my chances. I will eventually get nailed, but my car is clean and looks like it has been well looked after. It's louder than the average car, but still quieter than most trucks. I try not to draw attention to myslef when driving and I don't intend to have any smoke of any kind out of my tailpipe. Maybe that will help keep me under their radar.

Thanks again for your help and input.

Kind regards,
Vic

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Pint and a Pound wrote:

Hemi43 ... the Portly Piper (south Ajax) has great wings, just not sure I'll find time before Christmas. Does sound like a plan though.

Let me know !! That's walking(stumbling) distance from my parents house.

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Just had it confirmed by the Camaro Team Restoration experts.
All 1969 Camaro 350 Automatic equiped cars had NO A.I.R. pumps. ALL manual transmission equiped, 1969 Camaros with 350 did have A.I.R. pumps.

Vic

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Just use the engine you have. I really can't see the MOE digging that deep. There's bigger fish to fry !!

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Ya Hemi and thats just the minivans. Ed

-- Edited by flatblack55delivery on Monday 26th of November 2012 10:48:19 PM

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

Hemi 43
in fact, in 69 70 and 71 one could order from the factory, installed headers, 4:11s and special mufflers from chryco and Gm and Ford as part of the ongoing hp wars -
pick a midsized car like a chevelle/camaro or a duster/swinger or a mustang/torino and you could order special motors like the all aluminum LS7, as well as the aforementioned parts - if you had the wallet
and lets not forget the hemi dart's with stripped interior, headers, gears, etc that topped em all in 1968
or the Nascar 69 mustangs with very Special big inch Boss 429s , headers, 4:11s etc - of which my waste of air step father had one of and I was lucky enough to drive the tires off of at the tender age of 14

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Seeker1056 wrote:
Hemi 43
in fact, in 69 70 and 71 one could order from the factory, installed headers, 4:11s and special mufflers from chryco and Gm and Ford as part of the ongoing hp wars -
pick a midsized car like a chevelle/camaro or a duster/swinger or a mustang/torino and you could order special motors like the all aluminum LS7, as well as the aforementioned parts - if you had the wallet
and lets not forget the hemi dart's with stripped interior, headers, gears, etc that topped em all in 1968
or the Nascar 69 mustangs with very Special big inch Boss 429s , headers, 4:11s etc - of which my waste of air step father had one of and I was lucky enough to drive the tires off of at the tender age of 14

I guess it's not much different than today, except the cars are much faster now. Some will argue, but did you ever think 20 years ago that we would be able to purchase factory cars with 600 hp and a full manufacturer's warranty ?

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

cadmanof50s wrote:
Just had it confirmed by the Camaro Team Restoration experts.
All 1969 Camaro 350 Automatic equiped cars had NO A.I.R. pumps. ALL manual transmission equiped, 1969 Camaros with 350 did have A.I.R. pumps.

Vic

mfleury

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i got a 283 4 sale complete from carb to tranny plus other parts for a 66 pontiac ect. __________________ martin fleury

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

You guys are far too paranoid!!!!!!!!!!!! period.

Ken,

Sorry to say I agree with you!!! Since NOT A PERSON has been stopped by the MOE this year, why does everyone continue to carry on??

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

As I mentioned earlier...I am not going to worry about this anymore. The decision has been made, I will be using this '69 block for my build. No more paranoia. I'll take what comes. I did my best to be as compliant as I could… and that's good enough for me.
But back to the topic of the actual motor..speaking to the Camaro Team guys the actual serial number does not make any sense to them. The casting is right, the suffix is right but the actual serial number was not from a Camaro.
On further research...I discovered that this motor was indeed a Chev engine (no doubt) but, by the stamped engine number it appears to have been installed in a Canadian-built Pontiac!
The "79" beginning numbers of the engine VIN followed by the "I" indicates that it was installed in 1969 into a Pontiac that was assembled in Oshawa. The engine itself was built in Tanawanda plant.
Many folks on the Camaro site are speculating it may very well have been from a Beaumont, or a Parisiane. I know that my Dad purchased a brand new 1969 Laurentian with a 350 and a Powerglide in it.
So it is highly unlikely that this motor originally came from a Camaro. However, everyone seems to agree that it was some 1969 GM vehicle….with the new info…most likely a Pontiac.

Vic

-- Edited by cadmanof50s on Tuesday 27th of November 2012 11:39:21 AM

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Yep,think your right on annual safety Insp. coming down the pipe. Just look at how many cars & trucks get their plates pulled on a holiday wknd. BLITZ!! Port Perry seems to have a continual MOT & Durham region police Blitz having vehicles go back to MOT yard in Manchester for inspection. How long before someone in the Prov. Gov brings in Legislation on this & see more TAX $$$ coming their way just like the D/Clean program is a CASH COW. Ont. is one of the few Prov. that don't have a insp. program, & most states have it as well. I think some of the Atlantic prov. even have to get their trailers insp. yrly.???? Note true story, a freind of mine got stopped in Port Perry summer before last in his 72 Impala rag top, had to go to Manchester for Insp. Cop wasn't too pleasant when he stopped him, & Mot Inspector made a "muttered "comment about getting this "crap can" off the road!!! Well his Impala passed without a thing being wrong, Inspector & Durham cop were PI$$ED!!!! Just goes to show you that our old cars are kept in better shape than the daily drivers on the road today Pete

atomsplitter · NEWCASTLE, ONT

It sounds like this subject has finally been beaten to death........except for my one question regarding selling a vehicle!

After reading some of the MOE site information my interpretation is that you cannot legally SELL your vehicle certified if it does not comply with the MOE emissions crap!

Comments ? (I mean other that Fcuk Off and Shut Up?)

DaveM · ONTARIO

OOOPS!!!!!!

TIME TRAVELLER · NIAGARA REGION, ONT

It's in the Environmental Protection Act itself, see link. It clearly stares "no person" and that means everybody, and it refers to both the vehicle itself and a motor separately, and even if the vehicle or engine is just advertised never mind sold. I know that MOE used to check used cars on dealers lots for this but seriously, I doubt they have the resources to do much of this today even with dealers let alone Joe Q. Public. However, this requirement might form the basis for a lawsuit if you buy a car or engine and it's missing some emission stuff, not that any of you would ever do such a thing of course!

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90e19_e.htm#BK58

PART III
MOTORS AND MOTOR VEHICLES

Motors and motor vehicles, environmental controls

Sale of motor vehicle that does not comply with regulations

22. (1) No person shall sell, or offer, expose or advertise for sale, a motor or motor vehicle that does not comply with the regulations.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Think that was said somewhere, I saw a section where it stated that 'It is illegal to sell a vehicle in Ontario that doesn't comply with all all emmission standards & equipment" if I remember it right?? This may "pertain' to dealers only!!!I know they are under different rules than the private seller. Pete

DaveM · ONTARIO

Atomsplitter wrote:

I'm with daveM, Hemi43 in thinking that if we know the laws we're better protected in the future.

I sold my car in July 2011, not knowing at the time that it was non-compliant. Late model EFI engine in an older car. Passed certification no issue.

As much as it can cause debate, anger, so called paranoia and annoy's the heck out of some people that it keeps coming up, we need the discussion to spread the word and

clarify my/our understanding of the laws. And we have made good progress.

-- Edited by DaveM on Wednesday 28th of November 2012 07:16:29 PM

-- Edited by DaveM on Wednesday 28th of November 2012 07:17:13 PM

TIME TRAVELLER · NIAGARA REGION, ONT

Forgot to mention something that Atomsplitter referred to - all this emission stuff has NOTHING to do with the "certification" of a vehicle for sale, ie: a Safety Standards Certificate, or even if it's sold "as is". According to the Act, it can't be "offered, exposed or advertised" for sale without meeting Reg. 361 standards for emission equipment regardless of whether it's ready for the road or it's junk. Doesn't make much sense when you consider that many cars are sold and scrapped solely because they won't pass an emission test because they're simply worn out!

cadmanof50s · KESWICK, ONT

Hey Pint,

Next time you're in the area be sure to drop by. Keswick is not that far off your route...well maybe just a little.
No the Camaro is not done, yet. I just droped the block off to the engine shop last night. I called him today and asked if he was done yet. He didn't have a lot nice things to say...

Cheers!

Vic

atomsplitter · NEWCASTLE, ONT

Thanks Time Traveller,
Although I don't know why there would be any restrictions on selling a non-compliant car if it wasn't road-worthy (certified).

This restriction on the sale of a vehicle is the part of the emissions crap I'm worried about the most. We can probably say that under todays level of MOE survailence the chances of getting pulled over are very remote (yet these rules hang over all of us that are non-compliant). I can see that this may be something that could get passed down to the garages that perform certifications to check or yearly vehicle inspections if they come in the future if the MOE wants to be (seem) more aggressive. It wouldn't cost them a dime! I agree with the the comment that this could be a legal liability in the future that if we sell a car that gets pulled over and is found to be not compliant the previous owner would be on the hook to make it right or give the money back!??!

I'm with daveM, Hemi43 in thinking that if we know the laws we're better protected in the future.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Pint and a Pound wrote:
I starting to wonder if maybe Quebec had the right idea in trying to separate from the rest of Canada ... anyone here interested in starting a country?

We could make up all our own laws ... or eliminate all laws I guess too ....

-- Edited by Pint and a Pound on Wednesday 28th of November 2012 05:51:12 PM

I'd be interested !! I'm getting quite nervous as to which way we're heading as far as becoming a police state.

My Canadian flag definitely does not wave as high on the pole as it once did.

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

My Canadian flag definitely does not wave as high on the pole as it once did.

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