vw front engine dragster

Gearhead · ELORA, ONT

calculating a 1/4 mile time?

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Like gearhead said, you need to know rear tire diameter, but that's not as easy as it sounds because when you trip the lights at the end of the 1/4 your tires will have ballooned to an unknown diameter

edit; Pint & Pound was typing the same answer at the same time !! Kinda freaky !! LOL

-- Edited by hemi43 on Friday 30th of November 2012 09:08:55 AM

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Hi All,

In my introduction post I had mentioned that I had just recently bought a front engine dragster....less the engine.

Going to recondition the chassis, etc. and get it on the track next season. I was looking a little closer at it last night and found that it has a 5.17 gear ratio in the rear end. I'm going to run a powerglide with a 4500 stall converter and my 327 sbc that I had built.

So my question is.....is it possible to run that combination or am I going to be revved out before the end of the quarter?

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Pint and a Pound · AJAX, ONT

I ran 10.70 on a bike at somewhere around 120 mph. I would assume your dragster will be in the 10's with a relatively mild SBC. You should be able to calculate the rpm based on the gear you have and your tire diameter (assuming the 'glide top gear is 1.1). Keep in mind, there might be a possibility the slicks will grow in diameter at the top end of the track which will lower your rpm a bit.

Find the math on the internet, input your gear ratio and tire diameter and 120 and 130 mph and it should tell you what your engine rpm will be. This will all give you a rough idea what your engine will be spinning because we are assuming the mph.

Bryan · ST MARYS, ONT

You can use this calculator to find what you are looking for for top end RPM
http://www.hotrodpitstop.com/tool.php

Bryan

Pint and a Pound · AJAX, ONT

Setting up a car for the drags (or any racing for that matter) means looking at the package as a hole ... now, just throw your money in that hole biggrin .

Just kidding, look at the entire package as a whole ... for example, if your cam, heads, intake, stop making power at 5000 rpm (just using this as an example), shifting and going through the lights at 7500 rpm isn't a well thought out package. Just something to think about.

33 fuel · ORANGEVILLE. ONT

What's done to the motor ? Are u spraying it ? That will be the biggest concern ( the motor). Did the tranny come with the car ?and how fast do you want to go with this thing ? Going by the pic in your avatar it looks like the car has a 14/32 on it or a little smaller . If your going to 1/8 mile the car then you will need to look at a different gear . Also are u running a brake? And what is first gear in the trans ? That's a lot of questions to ask but if you can fill in a lot of these questions . Ill tell you were you will be

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

This is a good info posting.

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

33 fuel wrote:
What's done to the motor ? Are u spraying it ? That will be the biggest concern ( the motor). Did the tranny come with the car ?and how fast do you want to go with this thing ? Going by the pic in your avatar it looks like the car has a 14/32 on it or a little smaller . If your going to 1/8 mile the car then you will need to look at a different gear . Also are u running a brake? And what is first gear in the trans ? That's a lot of questions to ask but if you can fill in a lot of these questions . Ill tell you were you will be

Thanks to everyone that has answered this post. Lot's of things to consider. I guess I should have done some homework before buying it.

I bought the motor already built and was told it dyno'd around the 400hp mark. I won't be spraying this motor.

The tranny came with the car and has a trans brake. Not sure what the first gear ratio is. They kept the converter but I picked another one up last weekend which is supposed to be a 4500 stall.

Speed....we all want to go fast, don't we? biggrin I guess if I can get it over 100mph to start with, I'd be happy....for now.....just to get my feet wet.

The tires are Hoosier 29.0/10.0/15. They will have to be changed before I go racing. They look weather checked.

I'd like to run the 1/4 mile if possible.

The rail had been bought from the original owner, by the guy I bought it from....so he couldn't really tell me the specs on it. Attached is a picture of the motor that was in it when it was running.

Thanks

33 fuel · ORANGEVILLE. ONT

What do u have for ignition ? Any msd stuff?

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Wow, didn't expect to see that in there!! (Nice plumbing!!)

33 fuel · ORANGEVILLE. ONT

What kind of diff? 9"?

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

33 fuel wrote:
What kind of diff? 9"?

Diff is.....as far as I can figure.....a Dodge 8 3/4 with a 5.17 ratio. I do have a Ford 9" with 4.56 gears in my other project that I could modify if needed.

Yes it has an MSD ignition box and also what might be the launch box for the trans brake.

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Did the dragster run at local Ont strips?

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

sasquatch wrote:
Did the dragster run at local Ont strips?

I do believe it was an Ontario car but I haven't been able to find any info or other pictures about it.

BARRIE, ONTARIO

cool project man ..77.

33 fuel · ORANGEVILLE. ONT

How high do you want to spin the motor?

hemi43 · ONTARIO

166slingshot wrote:
33 fuel wrote:
What kind of diff? 9"?
Diff is.....as far as I can figure.....a Dodge 8 3/4 with a 5.17 ratio. I do have a Ford 9" with 4.56 gears in my other project that I could modify if needed.
Yes it has an MSD ignition box and also what might be the launch box for the trans brake.

Keep the 8 3/4 !! Post the casting number on the pumpkin, and I'll tell you exactly what you have. The last 3 digits will be either 741, 742 or 489

-- Edited by hemi43 on Saturday 1st of December 2012 09:28:20 AM

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Diff is a "489"

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Here's some stuff to get you started. Sell the 5.17's they are for a heavy car that likes lotsa RPM, excess of 7500. Buy some 4.11 "PRO GEARS". Get 30" slicks, not taller than 32", the tire growth (10%) will pretty much offset the 4500 rpm converter slippage. Converter will NOT lockup, will slip 8-10%. You are trying to keep 6500 RPM range. As Spock says "live long and prosper". This will run in the 10.0 @ 135 mph range. Some food for thought here; 9.90 sounds better than 10.0 but last time I checked 9.90 cost $1500 per year MORE in equipment required to be changed Annually. For 1/10th of a second and the same payout?
There was an article in Hot Rod Magazine about 18 months ago about TWIN TURBOS ON A stock Chevy LS engine. 1204 horsepower with no trick parts except the turbos. 1200 HP would let you run 3.91 gears, 6000 rpm and a lower stall converter. Read that article and give it some thought. Boost can be reduced to 600hp area and still go like stink and not eat parts in a 1200 lb car.
Ask the engine shop what kinda rpm will that SBC do safely. If it will do 6500 safely you can run an HEI with Corvette module. It will act as an rpm limiter and produce a healthy spark program. You do NOT need fancy MSD boxes unless you are higher than 13:1 compression.

We saw a guy, at St. Thomas, shear the input shaft off a Richmond 5 speed at launch. Car never moved. That trans was 3 grand then, about 1982. I'll bet pushing back to the pits was more fun than replacing those parts. Drag Racing is a lotta fun, until your broke, materially and financially.

I'll dig out some more stuff and get back to you.
the Kid

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Good interesting post "Kid". Drag racing is a real addiction! as bad as a drug to some.

Even if one quits it totally, years later , just the sound of an engine firing up starts an immediate adrenalin rush, totally distracting ones senses.

Gotta love it!!

hemi43 · ONTARIO

166slingshot wrote:
Diff is a "489"

Good !! That's the strongest of the three, and aftermarket gears are available. Don't go through the hassle of changing it out to a 9" because it is only slightly stronger.

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Gwillyville Kid wrote:
Here's some stuff to get you started. Sell the 5.17's they are for a heavy car that likes lotsa RPM, excess of 7500. Buy some 4.11 "PRO GEARS". Get 30" slicks, not taller than 32", the tire growth (10%) will pretty much offset the 4500 rpm converter slippage. Converter will NOT lockup, will slip 8-10%. You are trying to keep 6500 RPM range. As Spock says "live long and prosper". This will run in the 10.0 @ 135 mph range. Some food for thought here; 9.90 sounds better than 10.0 but last time I checked 9.90 cost $1500 per year MORE in equipment required to be changed Annually. For 1/10th of a second and the same payout?
There was an article in Hot Rod Magazine about 18 months ago about TWIN TURBOS ON A stock Chevy LS engine. 1204 horsepower with no trick parts except the turbos. 1200 HP would let you run 3.91 gears, 6000 rpm and a lower stall converter. Read that article and give it some thought. Boost can be reduced to 600hp area and still go like stink and not eat parts in a 1200 lb car.
Ask the engine shop what kinda rpm will that SBC do safely. If it will do 6500 safely you can run an HEI with Corvette module. It will act as an rpm limiter and produce a healthy spark program. You do NOT need fancy MSD boxes unless you are higher than 13:1 compression.

We saw a guy, at St. Thomas, shear the input shaft off a Richmond 5 speed at launch. Car never moved. That trans was 3 grand then, about 1982. I'll bet pushing back to the pits was more fun than replacing those parts. Drag Racing is a lotta fun, until your broke, materially and financially.

I'll dig out some more stuff and get back to you.
the Kid

Well, thank you very much for all the info. It gives me somewhere to start, instead a lot of trial and error at the track. Really appreciate your help.

Just a side note. The 4500 stall converter I picked up last weekend doesn't fit the glide. The small input shaft on the trans has a different spline than the spline inside the converter. confuse

So I'm shopping again for one. Maybe I shouldn't go as high of stall this time. The engine builder told me 3500 when I was going to use a TH350 in my pro street with the same engine.

It's going to be fun no matter what. Can't wait to blast it down the track! blankstare

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Here's more stuff to help you out. I had to get into my "Wayback Machine" aka Tandy 286 to find this.
Do use a 5500 rpm converter. It will flash you right to your horsepower and torque area. 3500 is for the street, requiring you to drive higher than 3500 rpm to reduce slippage. Get a hard launch, a 32" x 10.5 tire should grip. I'm not a trans brake guy because there is no pre-load on differential, which is really hard on parts, that is why "Pro Gears" were invented. A stab the throttle start will jar the slicks for grip. 32" "Pro-Stock" slicks will load the engine a bit, making it use the torque, and will MPH in High gear. You need 300 RWHP to make a 1500 lb car to run 10.0. That's 1500 lbs on the starting line, with driver, ready to race. Considering converter slippage and parasitic loss your 400 HP SBC is probably about right. 10.0 @ 135 is your target.
10.0 with MPH higher than 135 means you chassis set up needs work If it hooks up hard one time that will cause an E.T. break out.
10.0 @ less than 135 , mph means your chassis set up is right but your hp is low. Be careful, If the weather changes, this is an E.T. breakout waiting to happen as well.
The Auto Manufacturers used to claim 75-80 hp difference between gross and net hp. Take a 400 hp engine deduct 75-80 hp, and some extra loss for the extra converter slippage and you end up with approx 300 rwhp.
I have a formula to calculate the best E.T you will run based on your actual time slip mph. We will talk about that next time.
The article in Hot Rod Magazine I mentioned last time is titled "Big Bang Theory" September 2011. As Artie Johnson used to say on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In "Verrrrrry Interesting!"

the Kid

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Gwillyville Kid wrote:
Here's more stuff to help you out. I had to get into my "Wayback Machine" aka Tandy 286 to find this.
Do use a 5500 rpm converter. It will flash you right to your horsepower and torque area. 3500 is for the street, requiring you to drive higher than 3500 rpm to reduce slippage. Get a hard launch, a 32" x 10.5 tire should grip. I'm not a trans brake guy because there is no pre-load on differential, which is really hard on parts, that is why "Pro Gears" were invented. A stab the throttle start will jar the slicks for grip. 32" "Pro-Stock" slicks will load the engine a bit, making it use the torque, and will MPH in High gear. You need 300 RWHP to make a 1500 lb car to run 10.0. That's 1500 lbs on the starting line, with driver, ready to race. Considering converter slippage and parasitic loss your 400 HP SBC is probably about right. 10.0 @ 135 is your target.
10.0 with MPH higher than 135 means you chassis set up needs work If it hooks up hard one time that will cause an E.T. break out.
10.0 @ less than 135 , mph means your chassis set up is right but your hp is low. Be careful, If the weather changes, this is an E.T. breakout waiting to happen as well.
The Auto Manufacturers used to claim 75-80 hp difference between gross and net hp. Take a 400 hp engine deduct 75-80 hp, and some extra loss for the extra converter slippage and you end up with approx 300 rwhp.
I have a formula to calculate the best E.T you will run based on your actual time slip mph. We will talk about that next time.
The article in Hot Rod Magazine I mentioned last time is titled "Big Bang Theory" September 2011. As Artie Johnson used to say on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In "Verrrrrry Interesting!"

the Kid

Hey, either you know your old tv show's or you are dating yourself biggrin .

I used to have a crush on Goldie Hawn! Actually she still not bad for her age. smile

Thanks for the info. I will check out that article.

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

If you're planning to run ONDR you'll need to remove the delay box for the trans brake I believe

JAR · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

I knew of a turbo VW powered front engine car that was built here in Niagara for a young fellow that lived in Grimsby. I never did see the finished car though. One year he towed it all the way to Bowling Green for the reunion and they sent him packing.

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

JAR wrote:
I knew of a turbo VW powered front engine car that was built here in Niagara for a young fellow that lived in Grimsby. I never did see the finished car though. One year he towed it all the way to Bowling Green for the reunion and they sent him packing.

Why would they send him packing?

This may be the same car I bought but it was less the engine.

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

heres a ad for sale in 2003 in Michigan... sounds like yours....

vw front engine dragster

-- Edited by 427CARL on Monday 10th of December 2012 08:54:24 PM

JAR · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

don't know---maybe they didn't like the powerplant. I thought it was kinda cool. This kid was a real diehard VW guy. He was in the Canadian army

JAR · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

what's your wheelbase? We have a new 160" waiting for us to get around to it.

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

SLINGSH.3.jpg

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

JAR wrote:
what's your wheelbase? We have a new 160" waiting for us to get around to it.

Wheelbase is 166".

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

427CARL wrote:

Yup, that's the baby. biggrin

Do you know any more about it?

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Sounds close but attached is a picture of the car in the ad.

69SS454 · MILTON, ONT

Check out the other photos I posted in your introduction thread. http://ontariorodders.activeboard.com/t51699404/new-from-port-perry/

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Gosh you had me thinking until I looked at the last picture you posted in "Introductions".
That dragster looks so close until you look at the front end.
Mine doesn't have the 2 radius rods/stabilizers that attach to the front axle and run back on an angle.
The only thing I noticed on the picture that 427CARL posted, is the name "Insane Bros Racing and Fabrication" out of Beamsville.
I guess the car wasn't very popular. I've spent hours on the internet trying to find stuff on it.

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

166slingshot wrote:
Gosh you had me thinking until I looked at the last picture you posted in "Introductions".
That dragster looks so close until you look at the front end.
Mine doesn't have the 2 radius rods/stabilizers that attach to the front axle and run back on an angle.
The only thing I noticed on the picture that 427CARL posted, is the name "Insane Bros Racing and Fabrication" out of Beamsville.
I guess the car wasn't very popular. I've spent hours on the internet trying to find stuff on it.

I looked too (its fun) and I can't read the writing on the cowl

I guessed at Drag Toy III

SLINGSH.3-2.jpg

SLINGSH.3-1.jpg

Hotrodron · BELLE EWART, ONT

I have a 489 case with 4:30 gears for sale if you are interested

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-auto-parts-tires-transmission-drive-train-Chrysler-8-3-4-diff-center-section-W0QQAdIdZ483685929

-- Edited by Hotrodron on Tuesday 17th of September 2013 05:25:08 PM

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Kinda wondering how you made out? Are you running? What's your E.T. & mph? What does it weigh? What RPM at finish line?
the Kid.

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Gwillyville Kid wrote:
Kinda wondering how you made out? Are you running? What's your E.T. & mph? What does it weigh? What RPM at finish line?
the Kid.

Still hoping to get to the track and make a few passes before the snow flies, just to see what I have to work with over the Winter.

Had to dedicate a lot of my weekends this year to my elderly parents. It has been a busy time. Not much time to work on the car.

Did manage to build a trailer for the car. It looks good riding on top.... biggrin

Body panels are out being painted right now.

Thanks for asking. Will update as soon as I make a rip down the strip!

Mike

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

Hotrodron wrote:
I have a 489 case with 4:30 gears for sale if you are interested

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-auto-parts-tires-transmission-drive-train-Chrysler-8-3-4-diff-center-section-W0QQAdIdZ483685929

-- Edited by Hotrodron on Tuesday 17th of September 2013 05:25:08 PM

Yup interested. Will pm you for details.

Thanks

Mike

jim_ss409 · BARRIE, ONTARIO

Nice job on the trailer! It looks great!
The car looks great too!
I hope you can get a chance to make a pass or two before the snow flies.

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Agreed , nice job on the trailer.

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

Don't forget Armdrop in Picton on Sept 28th.Should get lots of passes there. Ed

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Probably not much help, but with a 1 to 1 output on the trans final drive, a 4:56 with a 28 inch tire used to put me through the end at 6400 in a quarter.

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

flatblack55delivery wrote:
Don't forget Armdrop in Picton on Sept 28th.Should get lots of passes there. Ed

Wish I could make it but we sold the family farm and will be moving my dad that weekend.

It definitely would have been a good weekend to try it out. cry

166slingshot · PORT PERRY, ONT

sasquatch wrote:
Probably not much help, but with a 1 to 1 output on the trans final drive, a 4:56 with a 28 inch tire used to put me through the end at 6400 in a quarter.

Thanks for the info.

I moved up to a 32 inch tire from the 28 so that should help a little.

Mike