1930 Model A Tudor Frame Help?

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

1930 Model A Tudor Frame Help?

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Well. Here we go

Personally. I would build a frame. 2x3. 3/16

If you have to BOX AND Z IT. A lot easier to start from scratch

On could be built in a weekend. Especialy if your going with more than 300 hp

$ 250 of new steel. Bobs your uncle

But thats just me

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

Grumpsbodyworks wrote:
Well. Here we go

Personally. I would build a frame. 2x3. 3/16

If you have to BOX AND Z IT. A lot easier to start from scratch

On could be built in a weekend. Especialy if your going with more than 300 hp

$ 250 of new steel. Bobs your uncle

But thats just me

I would be all over that if I had the ability to weld or knew of someone that could who would help me. This project is my son and I and that's about it. If I was still in the states, I would have all the help that I could possilby need, but I don't know anyone here local that is able (willing) to help.

jarvis1 · COBBLE HILL, BC

If you were to buy the frame rail boxing kit, how would you install it?
All the things you want to do, require welding.
There must be a local welder near you that you can take the frame to and have him weld it.
It will not be free.

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Hooks here's what I started with and what I ended up with. If you don't want to read for yourself to LEARN some frame geometry, you'll never know the proper "way" to build a frame. By the way, this one has been to the west coast and back, so it works pretty good. scott and me2.JPG

And this is what I ended up with....you fill in the blanks

June 12 frame 007.JPG

ANd to answer your questions

#1Solid or belld holes doesn't matter your choice

#2 YES K members (geometry) stiffen the frames rigidity and improves the overall vehicle handling

#3 Only if you want it lower than stock. Z'd rear frame and dropped axle, drops the center of gravity thereby improving the handling of the vehilcle. See there's that damn geometry again

-- Edited by Rochie on Saturday 7th of September 2013 01:48:25 PM

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

jarvis1 wrote:
If you were to buy the frame rail boxing kit, how would you install it?
All the things you want to do, require welding.
There must be a local welder near you that you can take the frame to and have him weld it.
It will not be free.

This is something that is obvious!

Unfortunately the answers are not being provided. I was sure that this was the proper location for an answer or two, but instead I am getting answers that are too vague to be remotely helpful.

I was sure that there was someone here on this site that would have insight into the "PROPER" way to build my frame, so that I am not taking the advice of the "local welder" that may or may not have the actual experience for what I am looking for. I have "their" statement that they do, but here on this site, I see the obvious results, which is the reason for my coming to you here for the advice.

And to comment on Jarvis1..... There is nothing in life that is free except life itself. I would never come into a project like this with the thought that any of this would be "Free" as you assumed my thought was by your statement. Money and some skills I have, full knowledge and skills of the "PROPER" way to rebuild my dream car is unfortunately what I am lacking, which was the original reason for coming here for advice from seasoned pros.

This thread was a request for guidance from the "self stated" hot rod builders that some of you are, not an opportunity for people to voice their opinions on what I may know and may not know or their assumptions on my avenues of creating MY dream hot rod.

If there is NOTHING that you can add that will help the subject of the thread, then do everyone a favor and keep your comments to yourself.

Respectfully,

Hooks

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

Fishhooks wrote:
Hey everyone:

First of all let me prequel this by saying that I don't know much in regards to the frame of a hot rod, so bare with me if I come across as "ignorant".

I have been told by a few people that I should do the following to my frame to prepare it for becoming a hot rod and I would like your assistance here:

         a.         Box the frame rails (I already knew this one)   ---   Should I use the solid boxing kit or the one that is pre-drilled? Is one better than the other?
         b.         Install K brackets to the mid-frame cross member?
         c.         Raise the rear of the frame by "z-ing" it to allow the body to sit lower? (what will that do for my car and the drive of it?)

I know these may seem like basic questions for most of you, but I don't want to send my frame to a custom fab shop, only to have it chopped into pieces for no apparent reason.

Thank you in advance for your help with this.

Hooks.

id Say all of the above, but boxing the frame if you have the need of. Keeping. The. Original frame, I would. Go with. Grumps and build or have. Built. A custom. Frame. I could help you with that for a decent price

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Wow

And ii WAS going to offer for you to come and see a couple of examples of square tube Z d frames i have built or am building

The questions you ask are very deep as far as HOW TO and depend on you and the
choices you want to make for your DREAM RIDE

SIMPLE COONVERSATIONS lead to offers of help

BUT TEARSE RETORTS result in in few offers

Just sain

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Don't take this wrong, but if you have to ask these basic questions, maybe you're in over your head!! You can't just build a car without having a basic idea of how it's done. Take baby steps on this project. There's some excellent books out there that you can read to familiarize yourself on the basics of building a hot rod. When building a car, you must be at least 10 steps ahead or the project will never get done. My 2 cents

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

I don't understand your response. You were given reasonable advice on what to do even though your specific questions weren't answered. You say you're ignorant when it comes to building a frame and I'd say it doesn't end there. Sounds to me like you should either buy a completed properly built frame or find a hobby you do know something about.

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

WOW!!

So my assumptions were correct when it comes to the ignorance of some of the people on here!

scott420p · BRAMPTON, ONT

Fishhooks wrote:
WOW!!

So my assumptions were correct when it comes to the ignorance of some of the people on here!

I'd say goodbye to any help you may have gotten from some of these builders with comments like that. I guess to each their own.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Fishhooks wrote:
WOW!!

So my assumptions were correct when it comes to the ignorance of some of the people on here!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My name is Brian (aka Hooks). I am married and have 4 children and we live in Southern Ontario.

I have been a "wishful" Rodder since I was about 8 years old when I was able to watch and help my brother-in-law rebuild his 1932 Ford 3 Window Coupe (which now resides in Arizona). After that amazing experience I was hooked and dreamed of the day when I could start the process myself.
Now I have a son that is 8 years old and that was my driving force for finding a project car that I can attempt to share those same experiences with him as I had shared with me all those years. Working with the metal, watching it finally take shape and creating something out of basically nothing. Meeting the great people that are also rodders, sharing their stories and especially making new friends.
We can't wait to meet all of you out there at the shows, the swap-meets and the open road!

Truly what it is all about.

Brian -- Hooks

The best advice I can give you now is to invest in a long distance calling card, because the only help you will get is in Arizona. disbelief

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

Start like a lot of us.....Buy a welder, take a Night school welding course , Listen to all the advice you can ...good and bad. Take the best of what you find and have at it. Or something like that. Actually more info might also be needed here... What's your dream car supposed to look like?? How low, type of suspension(front and rear)?? I 've only hung out with Grumps a couple of times and I already learned that all of these (and more) questions can effect the type of frame or up grades to your frame that are required.

Did I pass the quiz, Grumps???

Rich

jarvis1 · COBBLE HILL, BC

To quote "Hooks"...
I have been told by a few people that I should do the following to my frame to prepare it for becoming a hot rod and I would like your assistance here:

a. Box the frame rails (I already knew this one) --- Should I use the solid boxing kit or the one that is pre-drilled? Is one better than the other?

When you say "I should do the following..." Did you mean yourself or someone else?

"Should I use the solid boxing kit, etc...."
Who do you mean by "I"...?

I guess I was just stating the obvious when I made my comments and you are way above taking any advice from anyone on this forum.

TTFN

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

Well to comment on the end part of this thread....

I asked for advice on building a frame (which I was upfront about not having the knowledge of), but instead of the answers to the questions that I posed, I got everyones sermons on their thoughts of my abilities.

When I asked everyone to limit their responses to the subject matter of the original thread, I got rhetoric about my knowledge once again....here it is a Saturday and I am getting preached at like it was Sunday.

If you don't want to help, then that is perfectly fine with me, which is the reason I originally asked for comments to be kept to the original subject of the thread instead of attempting to flatten another person's dreams and aspirations of knowledge. This forum (if I get this right) was intended for a location for people to share ideas, ask for assistance and to buy / sell goods and not to mention "show off" their accomplishments and their individual rides. I don't believe that this was created as an outlet for bored "would-be" craftsmen to vent their frustrations on someone who is seeking "advice" for the fellow members of the forum.

- Originally Grump offered sound advice, although different from my original plan, it was sound advice.

- fatstax offered not only advice (agreeing with grumps idea) but also offered his services to help.

- Hemi offered advice, although mildly confrontational, very sound, stressing to me the need for taking small steps and planning ahead.

Unfortunately all the other comments were either: stating to me something that I already knew (and listed in the original subject of the thread) or were grabbing at straws in an attempt to belittle someone else due to their lack of ability in a field, that was already stated by the person as having a lack of ability but willingness to learn.

I was the first to admit that I needed advice and assistance on the frame of this vehicle, the only experience that I have with frames of this era was my brother-in-laws and it was original (obviously boxed), but it didn't have z-ing, or anything else similar to that. These are different than anything that I have ever seen before and heard about when I contacted a few welding shops. The shop owners gave me their ideas about what to do from their aspect, but I wanted the advice from people on this forum and unfortunately most of what I got was bullcrap banter and ignorant comments.

So I guess the short response to this is......for those that honestly attempted to offer me help, advice or direction...I want you to realize, though my comment was generalized, it was not directed to those of you that were sincere, but for everyone else.....keep your comments to yourself or go an scam someone elses thread for your own personal vedetta or jollies.....

Hooks

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

Rochie.....Thank you for that...

I am not in a position to learn the welding process of building a frame and definitely will be hiring someone to do that aspect of the build for me.

I just needed some ideas on the direction recommended from others so I wasn't taking only the advice from the frame shop that I was in contact with.

Thank you again.

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

ANd to answer your questions

#1Solid or belld holes doesn't matter your choice

#2 YES K members (geometry) stiffen the frames rigidity and improves the overall vehicle handling

#3 Only if you want it lower than stock. Z'd rear frame and dropped axle, drops the center of gravity thereby improving the handling of the vehilcle. See there's that damn geometry again

-- Edited by Rochie on Saturday 7th of September 2013 01:48:25 PM

That was exactly what I was looking for from the original request. Advice and opinion. 100%

Thank you again.

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

WOW AND DOUBLE WOW

There is a lot of very knowledgeable people on this form

Top notch builders

I have offered knowledge experience and help to many

As a matter of fact. I will be building a frame for a new rodder for FREE

He came on this site and ask questions and met people

And is truely a nice guy. Offered help to me without strings or requesting money

Goes around cones around

You on the other hand HAVE A LOT TO LEARN FROM HIM

Dave Scott. Good guy and now good freind

You remind me of anther person on this form that was very confrontational All he did was yap and be beligerent and he got NOTHING FROM ANYBODY

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR PROJECT I HOPE YOUR POCKETS ARE DEEP!

Ps Rich. Good job you passed the test!

wolfman1 · ST GEORGE, ONT

Check out Hitman Hotrods
They have a basic tube frame for your car starting at $1200
If your welding skills are nonexistent and you don't want to learn ,this is probably your best bet.
But the first thing you will have to decide is the ride height you want

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

You remind me of anther person on this form that was very confrontational All he did was yap and be beligerent and he got NOTHING FROM ANYBODY

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR PROJECT I HOPE YOUR POCKETS ARE DEEP!

The funny thing was, all I did was request that people maintain the comments to the subject of the thread or keep their comments to themselves. I was not beligerent nor confrontational, only stating my opinion and feelings on the comments that were put into place by some of the people on here.

As for the knowledgeable people and skilled craftsman on this forum....I totally agree with that statement 100% and was the original reason for my request for information, but instead I got people that were only attempting to stand on their own personal soap box.

For those few that attempted to help me....THANK YOU, for everyone else, I can only wish good luck and good fortune and please keep your comments to yourself if you are not interested in helping someone who asks. Not everyone is into helping people, and that is perfectly fine with me.

And as for your statement for helping someone for FREE....that is very admirable and unexpected in this day and age and I applaude you for that. Never was my intention to ask for or expect free assistance with my hot rod aspirations, but merely the advice on the proper direction.

Respectfully

Hooks

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

wolfman1 wrote:
Check out Hitman Hotrods
They have a basic tube frame for your car starting at $1200
If your welding skills are nonexistent and you don't want to learn ,this is probably your best bet.
But the first thing you will have to decide is the ride height you want

Thanks wolfman....I'll look into that and consider all my options including that one

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Bridge burned down.jpg

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

again, as I said earlier....personal soap box.

But thats fine, there are plenty of people willing to assist.

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

From my original post on this thread:

"I know these may seem like basic questions for most of you, but I don't want to send my frame to a custom fab shop, only to have it chopped into pieces for no apparent reason"

I might have not been entirely clear, which is fair, but I thought I was clear about my intentions to have it go to a frame shop for the work to be completed.

You are exactly correct at my original intent of the question....I don't know the shop and was NOT recommended to them from anyone that I know, so that is the reason for my attempt at clarification here.

janies dirty 37 · SOUTH RIVER, ONT

Hey hooks, Maybe post your questions in the builds and projects thread?
your post is in the "general car talk." You'll probably get more specific info starting a thread there.

Cheers
Janice

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

Will try that next time. Hopefully will have more luck with more direct responses than this time.

Model A Guy · STROUD, ONT

Fishhooks, I have sent you a PM.

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

"not as drunk..."

Thank you for the advice, I greatly appreciate your insight.

Mainly what upset me was not entirely the thread, that was the minor stuff, it was the private messages that I was receiving that put me over the top.

This nonsense unfortunately has consumed way too much of my Saturday. I do appreciate your direction though and will take it to heart when I finally make my decisions.

34guy · MISSISSAUGA, ONT

Hey Hooks

Understand your question entirely, You have been given some great advice here.

before I placed my frame in the hands of just someone that can weld. I would buy a frame from someone who makes them for a living.

A frame bought from one of these companies or persons will have all the front end , rear end and engine brackets all in the right location saving time and money

re paying to have things corrected down the line. a general welder likely wont know the exact location for all of these bracket or have a jig to put a frame in to prevent it from twisting due to the heat of weldind

Model a frames are cheap to buy as there are many people fabricating them. I would almost bet by the time you pay a welder to install your 500.00 boxing plates and z the rear frame it would be cheaper to buy a fabricated frame.

boxing plates are generally drilled for weight in a race situation or a personal look to the car , either way will stiffen your frame

Kmembers are needed to keep your frame square and prevent it frame twisting

Model a's have a high center of gravity without a z'ed rear end once z;ed though generally will require a lowered front end as well

either a drop axel . or dropped spindles on an independent front end. Post some picture's of other model a style you would like to have your car to look like and we can probably give some advice to what is needed to achieve that.

I still personally with your limited welding skills and a general welders limited skill and frame fabricating knowledge

Buy a frame ready to start attaching your part's

PS Grumps and Hemi behave yourselves and help out You both need a trip to the A.M.R

hemi43 · ONTARIO

34guy wrote:

PS Grumps and Hemi behave yourselves and help out You both need a trip to the A.M.R

Our original responses were meant to help, but was not taken that way by the poster. Grumps and I have actually built frames from scratch and we know what's involved. IMO, someone with no welding capabilities should not be building their own frames. I don't see anything negative in that comment.

hemikev · HAMILTON, ONT

ive gathered the parts i needed to get my project , but along the way ive watched the builds asked the questions , been all over the net for imput,,,,while i have not seen 43s work in person , i have seen grumps project in person , his work is second to none , Ive also seen prostreethotrods current project and a finished chopper , you might want to take any advise from these guys very serious , they know what it takes ,and have done it many times . im sure they learn every dayjust as we do . ask the ???s , take the advise to heart , hang around and watch the builds , alot of great builders here .

34guy · MISSISSAUGA, ONT

Absolutly hemi and grumps are both great builders and give great advice

As I suggested as well he would be better to buy a chassis

Just stirring it up a bit with grumps and hemi

oh by the way A.M.R. Attitude Modification Room

hemi43 · ONTARIO

34guy wrote:

oh by the way A.M.R. Attitude Modification Room

I got kicked out of that room !!

hemi43 · ONTARIO

fastchevy wrote:
Hooks...As stated once on this site I am just a "know nothing clown"

I thought you were just a Clown ! Thanks for the extra info. smile

-- Edited by hemi43 on Monday 9th of September 2013 04:22:32 PM

fastchevy · NORTH BAY, ONT

Hooks...as you can see if you are reading each post as they come, your assumption of some (one) on this site was right...most of the answers on here are very good pending on which route you want to go, but then theres always that one person (edited because it was a little harsh...sorry Harry/ mods) that hijacks the thread with childish remarks to another poster..with that said,..let me get ahold of my buddy and i'll try and get him to message you or something...good luck with your build and have fun doing it which ever route you go.

-- Edited by fastchevy on Tuesday 10th of September 2013 12:01:25 AM

chris d · PORT PERRY, ONT

I'LL build ya a frame $$$ ? pm me

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

Just so everyone knows...if I came across as not appreciating the responses on Saturday, that was not the intention. I was just at my wits end with the PM's that were coming through that the initial responses recieved on the thread were construed as attacks instead of recommendations (which at best was some of the earlier, not all).

I have on the other hand had the ability to derive from some of the responses who to go to for assistance and who to steer away from.

I do wish everyone the best, even the ones that were less than cordial.

Hooks

fastchevy · NORTH BAY, ONT

Hooks...As stated once on this site I am just a "know nothing clown" but, being a hotrodder and drag racer(which apparently doesn't belong on here either) I would like to throw in my 2 cents...I have built many hotrods and drag cars and learned a lot over the years by trial and error..as grumps said, it would be a whole lot easier starting with "new" material...cheaper? maybe...less aggravating...definetly! Boxing and bracing a frame is pretty simple...z ing one..pretty basic also....it's all metal, so it can be recut, rewelded etc..getting the proper geometrics for everything else is the touchy part.Sounds like you want to "build" this rod with your son , which is cool imo...Being an "old school" type, I try and do my own work, which is how I learned over the years..and had help AND advice from friends which I accepted gratefully. Sure, you can go out buy all the store bought pieces as suggested to make life much easier and assemble it all...Then in the end you have a "store bought" toy you put together,,which, again,,,my opinion...isn't really yours...to build one with from what you have..theres pride in the finished product. I have a buddy in Guelph who comes in here the odd time who could,and would be very helpful to your needs..and I trust his opinions and suggestions with my life...It never ceases to amaze me the way some come across saying the "proper" way to this would be blah blah...what really is the proper way to build a rod? To me there is a safe way or an unsafe way only...If you have a good frame,,,go at it..plain and simple..Experience is the best teacher

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Good post!! Fastchevy has considerable experience at what he is stating.

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

fastchevy.....

I greatly appreciate your "2 cents" and strongly feel that this is the avenue that I will take, once I clarify a few things on the exact direction that I am going to go with this project.

I have a friend of a friend (self-stated professional) coming to take a look at the frame in its current state to attempt to give me an evaluation if the frame is straight enough to move forward with utilizing it for my end result.

I would love to put in contact with your "guy" to see where that may lead for the rebuild (or build) process of the frame.

Thank you again for your assistance with this.

Hooks

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Good luck with your'e frame project hooks, -just ignore the Agitator on here, he has problems he should deal with, he would be much happier, and nicer here.
There are Lots of great people here, guys with lots of smarts.

34guy · MISSISSAUGA, ONT

FISHHOOKS does not weld , so I wouldn't be suggesting that he learn on his frame.

The very foundation of everything. What is the difference whether he buy's a

1400.00 frame or pay's someone 1400.00 to make his usable ,in the end he still never did the work himself.

Not trying to knock him down in any way here.

What he will get though is a tried and true chassis with all the correct measurment's and jig built

If he buy's a frame he will be painting and putting it together before the end of the week.

If he pay's someone to weld it up maybe a month, and how many trips back to the welder for changes.

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

I appreciate everyone's opinions and am taking it all into consideration. I have always wanted to learn to weld and guarantee that I am not going to learn on the frame of my car. Maybe one day, who knows.

I have high hopes for my project and the more that my son and I are able to do ourselves, the better....there is reality though, I know and fully understand that this is a LONG LONG project and the more that we are able to do ourselves, then the lower the cost.

I am not adverse to "store bought" or "rebuilt" for that matter, just want to weigh out all options to insure that I have all the information to make an informed judgement to streamline the process of our project.

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

fastchevy wrote:
...good luck with your build and have fun doing it which ever route you go.

fastchevy.....this is EXACTLY why I bought the sedan in the 1st place.

Thank you.

Newagerod · OSHAWA, ONT

Too big of a project for you? I see its for sale...

Fishhooks · FONTHILL, ONT

Newagerod wrote:
Too big of a project for you? I see its for sale...

Nothing to do with project load, better opportunity has presented itself....will move this one if I can get the other one that I have offered on.

wuga · PRINCE EDWARD COUNTY, ONT

I really want to respond to this thread. I initially PM’d and talked to fishhooks when he introduced his project on August 24, 2013. I offered to give him a list of suppliers but it didn’t fit his budget. Over the past two years, I have been building a hot rod. Now, I probably spent way more on mine then he intended to spend on his but the process is the same. Don’t just pick a project because it is handy, if you intend to finish it, you have to have a passion for this car. Know what has to be done to complete the project and know your limitations. Know your budget and don’t expect to build a 100K ride with 15K in your pocket. If you haven’t built a car before, talk to others at cruises etc who have done what you want to do and find out what they went through and what costs were involved. First time builders, don’t start with nothing and think it will come magically together. Buy a road worthy car, do minor mods, enhance your skills and once you are competent in several aspects, then find your project. Read several of the hot rod building books out there, make a comprehensive list of work to be done, attributes desired, resources at your disposal and your budget now and in the future (always double that). This is not a condemnation of this thread or of fishhooks, but this build only lasted 24 days before the car was abandoned, initiated misunderstandings and name calling and generally showed what can happen without a well laid plan. First time builders, when you come to a site like this, it’s like finding Nirvana. The experience here is overwhelming and when comments are made, they are usually reality and not criticism.

wuga

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

TADA. WELL SAID WUGA !

Everyone that wants to build a car should be FORCED TO READ YOUR COMMENT !

( and be tested for understanding and retention)

Model A Guy · STROUD, ONT

Excellent comment Wuga!!! Grumps, you always say the right things! Good for both of you.