How low is too low?

Grumper · WALKERTON, ONT

How low is too low?

hemi43 · ONTARIO

By law, no part of the vehicle may touch the ground if all tires were ever to go flat.

Dave Scott · ANCASTER, ONT

hemi43 wrote:
By law, no part of the vehicle may touch the ground if all tires were ever to go flat.

wow, you'd have to be REALLY unlucky for that to happen, lol

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Dave Scott wrote:
hemi43 wrote:
By law, no part of the vehicle may touch the ground if all tires were ever to go flat.
wow, you'd have to be REALLY unlucky for that to happen, lol

I think the reasoning behind that makes a lot of sense. They don't want anything to scrape the ground in case of a flat tire. When getting a street rod certified by NSRA, this is something that they check for also.

http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/hotnews/0403rc_national_street_rod_association/

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

I run 4.5" and rarely scrape but can adjust up

another 1.5"

As far as body height. My car is 43" to the highest part of the roof

Im building a coupe on air that lays FLAT. top of the roof is 37"

With ultra low profile tires you could run 2-3 inches and be legal BUT

it would be undriveable. You would drag everywhere. And get hung up on

speedbumps

-- Edited by Grumpsbodyworks on Tuesday 5th of November 2013 07:24:24 AM

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

If it will roll on bare rims you golden

Fordy Acres Car Farm · DORCHESTER, ONT

hemi43 wrote:
By law, no part of the vehicle may touch the ground if all tires were ever to go flat.

I try to never give Johnny Law a reason to deploy spike strips in my path....ever!

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

actualy i have a rat rod question for you grumps, my rat is laid out much like yours with the front axle far out front, i find my car is kinda bouncy in front since the engine is far back and theres not a alot of weight on the front axle. i have a transverse leaf and a sway bar as well. my shocks may not be as good as i think they are. did you ever have this issue? i think my front axle is about 10 inches further away from my engine then yours is

-- Edited by fatstax on Tuesday 5th of November 2013 01:07:48 PM

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Hey Fat....send a picture.... just guessing....... I think your "Over suspended" with the sway bar...(I don't run one)

Disconnect the sway bar and take it for a run...if its still bouncy....its shocks

Also New 60-40 shocks work wonders.....order the length you need 10-12-14-16" from Speedway...CHEAP

Rochie....your absofreekinlutely right!......Nothing and I mean nothing is worse that getting smacked in the head

with a June bug at 70 mph. You want to sit "IN THE CAR" make sure the winshield is at least as high as your head!

Or....add wind wings to the windshield.....

Rochie....he can sit in the car...if he doesnt channel the body TOOOOO MUCH. The exhaust will cover the frame from the side

Once i was blasting down the highway and a seagull dumped a load...I had the windshield open and got a spattered!

I can only imagine what a mouthfull I would have had if I was in an open car with my head ABOVE the windshield!

Oh yeah...Grumper.....google the HTA section 61 - 106...... it gives you all the guidelines you need when building a car......

read between the lines .....and make it work for your car.

-- Edited by Grumpsbodyworks on Tuesday 5th of November 2013 03:30:46 PM

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

i asked the ministry some tme ago about the rules concerning ride height, what i got was, the tires cannot touch the body, the body cannot touch the ground and the vehicle must be able to roll with the tires flat. headlights must be 23 inches off the ground as well

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

I think you just answered your own question weather or not you like it is something different all together . each to his own . You may want to incorporate 4 areas for spacer blocks to get it off the ground if something in the system fails

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

I agree with the 23" off the ground for headlights.....Minimum

But it does not say WHERE you have to measure ON THE HEADLIGHT

Top bottom or center....so that gives you 7" of play

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

i would imagine they mean the bottom, thats where the headlamp starts. good point though, the ministry almost tries to make the rules as vague as possible

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

BTW......if your not scraping......your too high

FYI ....the lower your frame the lower your "Roll Center" and "Center of Gravity" Your car will handle like its on "Rails"

with the proper suspension set-up. Corner like you have never before.....better have good seating.

The main "Hang-up" so to speak will be entering parking lots....coming off the road over the curb and past the "peak"

When building a frame....the 2 most important factors are....Handling and Drivability..... Over the years I have seen Many cars built

That have beautiful frames and suspensions....but handle like turds and roll over in corners like a cheap hooker on a sat night.

Or can't stear around a corner, or wander, or jump lanes when going over potholes

Handling = roll center and center of gravity

Drivability = bump steer, ackerman and squareness of frame in relation to axel .......and axel to axel (Square car)

It doesnt matter how beautifull the car is....if it doesnt drive or handle...YOU WILL HATE IT or SELL IT or IT WILL SIT IN A BARN

There is a lot more to frames than just ride height

just sayin...my 2 cents.....sorry ....my 0 cents (Rounded Down)

I just realized....my Opinion is now worth NUTHING!

Grumper · WALKERTON, ONT

Thanks for the info guys. I was aware of the scrub line but didn't know about the headlight height. Good info to know. I'll be spending a lot of time planning the suspension and steering, I want this to handle like a go kart.

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Grumper....ask Gazoo how my car handles.......he's still scraping his "Tidy no-so whities" after our "On Ramp" BLAST!

Its funny you say Go Kart.....Thats what I tell everybody that asks ......how my car handles

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Hey Graham,
You know my 29. It handles like a go cart as well, and it's not THAT low, so I don't have to worry about speed bumps etc.. It also doesn't have sway bars only pan hard bars. Plus, if you don't go too low you can sit "IN" the car not on it. Trust me sitting high out in the open is not pleasant in the rain or cold. Going through the rockies was an invigorating experience to say the least, especially following Pringle. The turns come at you one after another and the road is always changing altitude, so it's more like motocross than driving down a highway. Simply amazing.

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

im guessing the shocks are bad, they are new but likely 20 years old new.

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Doesnt matter how old they are as long as they havent leaked.

New shocks will have better valving and rebound rates that are more accurate.

Id still try disconnecting the sway bar....just for sh!ts and giggles ....its only 2 bolts

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Fat....I was just thinking......(Scary)

Is it the front end thats bouncy? or the front of the car thats bouncy? 2 different issuse

Front end bouncy...... could be shocks or 2 much suspension

Front of the car would be....2 much flex in the frame

Stand in the doorway of the car and bounce up and down.....if the frame flexes....you have other problems

Just sayin

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Grumpsbodyworks wrote:
Fat....I was just thinking......(Scary)

Is it the front end thats bouncy? or the front of the car thats bouncy? 2 different issuse

Front end bouncy...... could be shocks or 2 much suspension

Front of the car would be....2 much flex in the frame

Stand in the doorway of the car and bounce up and down.....if the frame flexes....you have other problems

Just sayin

Have you ever seen Fatstax?? He could make that new COE of his flex if he bounced up and down on it !!! And it's a friggin truck !!!!!!

fatstax · COBOURG, ONT

Grumpsbodyworks wrote:
Fat....I was just thinking......(Scary)

Is it the front end thats bouncy? or the front of the car thats bouncy? 2 different issuse

Front end bouncy...... could be shocks or 2 much suspension

Front of the car would be....2 much flex in the frame

Stand in the doorway of the car and bounce up and down.....if the frame flexes....you have other problems

Just sayin

frames made from 1/4 wall so theres zero flex in the frame. its the front axle itself, i can watch it fight with itself so im going to buy some shocks that are new this year, not 20 years ago

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

With a light front end Id check for runout on the rim itself. a traditional set up is more forgiving. Keeper from this board run into this with his bucket. New rims from Vintique. Dam things were oval. Easy enough to check with dial indicater right on the car before trowing any money at it.

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

I agree slim

Do the free stuff first. Rule out other problems before spending cash

Could also be tires

Even at speed i can see my tires run straight and true. No bounce

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

There's no such thing as "Too low!"

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Should have bough my car Mod...I dont have a stabilizer...and I have NO PROBLEMS

Measure tread to tread on the tire front and back...I run mine about 1/8 " wider at the front

also should have about 3-5 degree of caster in the front axel

Torque thing could be bump steer.....

Just thinkin

The third graphic shows Positive caster.

Positive Caster is found in automotive steering designs and tends to straighten or center the wheel when travelling forward which adds to the straight-line stability of the vehicle. Positive caster is typically found in automotive steering systems and is usually in the range of 3 to 5 degrees

Here is the connection to the deadly "Death Wobble" Effect: Have you ever used a grocery store shopping cart that had one wheel that wobbled as you pushed the cart? I bet that cart was pretty annoying an a bit hard to control. If you looked closely at the shopping carts' wobbling caster you would notice that it had been banged really hard against something causing the wheel part to be bent backwards at an extreme angle. The same wobbling on that shopping cart's front wheel is what you are experiencing when the caster angle on your front axle is greater than 5 degrees - especially if you also have worn steering components.

-- Edited by Grumpsbodyworks on Friday 8th of November 2013 11:36:41 AM

-- Edited by Grumpsbodyworks on Friday 8th of November 2013 11:39:01 AM

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

To check bump steer problems

Stand on the front of the frame...in front of the rad....and bounce up and down

if the steering wheel turns side to side..... thats Bump Steer.....thats whats causing the "Torque Thing"

If you jack up the frame on 1 side and the steering wheel moves...thats roll steer

2 differnt problems....both can be fixed

-- Edited by Grumpsbodyworks on Friday 8th of November 2013 01:14:04 PM

2inchestoolow · CLARINGTON, ONTARIO

2inchesTooLow...LOL

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

And Mr. Ragtop, what is it that you will be doing about that scraping noise under "T for Two"

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Turn up the radio!

fatchuk · ST MARYS, ONTARIO

For sure this is to low..taking it off the top to lower it... biggrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzkWTcDZFH0&feature=youtu.be

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

That is the tuffest bridge in the world!....

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

I wish there was someone up this way that could check over the front end of my roaster. It had the death wobble when I bought it but |I have since installed a So-Cal stabilizer. Jimmy Shine said that there is no build that leaves his shop with out one. It cured the death wobble instantly, but I have noticed a bit of scrub on the inside of the right front tire tread perhaps a tow in issue I will have to check.. Not much but it is there, the car tracks straight and you can even let go of the wheel. When you de-accelerate fast there is a torque thing that happens but I think this is normal.

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Modfather,
I agree with Shine about the stabilizer, BUT, first you should check the wheel bearings and races, spindle surfaces for wear. Make sure the bearings are properly torqued when re-installed.
Next, set the toe to 1/8th" with bias ply and 0-1/16th" with radials. It's the toe OUT that you have now that is causing inside tire wear and the "torque thing" and that by the way is NOT normal.

Wayne

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Well the car has less than 5K on it and I have not checked the tow. The caster will be checked at the same time. Thanks guys I appreciate the advise I will just add it to the winter to do list. biggrin

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Great tips thanks again I will also check for this I didn't mention the front end is Pete and jakes with a 4" drop axle.

crash43 · SAULT ST MARIE, ONT

if all things check out still put a couple degrees more caster in it. It will very likely give you better manners on the road. I put the stabilizer and added caster to my roadster after i spun out and hit a guardrail doing 60mph couple of summers ago. No problems since.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Grumpsbodyworks wrote:

Measure tread to tread on the tire front and back...I run mine about 1/8 " wider at the front

So you're saying that you're running 1/8 toe OUT?? I always thought that 1/8 toe IN was prefered

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Toe out

I read quite a few articles on solid front axles

Most said toe out worked better

I tried in and out

It seams to have better maners with it out

It better. Ive had the car over 115 mph. Opps i mean kph. ;)

With no issues. Straight as a arrow. Hands off wheel straight

No death wobbel. No chatter. No nuthin

Ask gazoo.

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

Rochie wrote:
And Mr. Ragtop, what is it that you will be doing about that scraping noise under "T for Two"

Got my new oil pan today Bro. Gives me an extra 1 1/2"

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

I've always run about 1/8" toe in ( depending on tire diameter - smaller tires require slightly less, I think) and never had a street rod that didn't handle well. I've never used a stabilizer of any sort either. This T is my 7th hot rod with a dropped axle.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Grumpsbodyworks wrote:
Toe out

I read quite a few articles on solid front axles

Most said toe out worked better

I tried in and out

It seams to have better maners with it out

It better. Ive had the car over 115 mph. Opps i mean kph. ;)

With no issues. Straight as a arrow. Hands off wheel straight

No death wobbel. No chatter. No nuthin

Ask gazoo.

I don't know ! I had my head between my legs, kissing my a....., well, you know how it goes.

All kidding aside, another thing that needs to be mentioned, is that Glenn has the engine sitting well behind the front axle. This helps with the weight distribution, and handling, also.

RacerRick · TORONTO, ONT

I always ran 1/16-1/8" toe in, and 5-7 degrees caster.

Never had a problem. I like a bit more caster because it helps settle the car down on the highway, but can make turning the wheel at low speeds a little harder. Since the cars I had ran skinny tires on the the front, it was never a problem.

Toe out will make the car 'darty' at speed, and very sensitive, so I run toe in.

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

If you check the major beam axle front end suppliers, they all say 1/8th to zero toe IN. Camber is built into the axle but can be changed. Caster can be achieved by adjusting 4 bars, setting the front cross member at a specified degree, or pie cutting (not all the way through) split wishbones bending. Again, if you check every major supplier you'll see 4 to 7 degrees of POSITIVE caster. we used to set front ends up by driver style. Little ol'lady, she gets negative caster, allows for easier steering, but cuts down on stability. Salesman always out on the highway, he gets positive caster, as much as I can give him. Positive, as has been said here increases stability at highway speeds.
My 29 is set up with .75+ degrees positive camber (Rt Side), .50+degrees (left side) 6+ degrees caster and 1/16th toe-in (with radials). It runs down the road with one finger steering at any speed and that's the way I like it.

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Rochie wrote:
If you check the major beam axle front end suppliers, they all say 1/8th to zero toe IN. Camber is built into the axle but can be changed. Caster can be achieved by adjusting 4 bars, setting the front cross member at a specified degree, or pie cutting (not all the way through) split wishbones bending. Again, if you check every major supplier you'll see 4 to 7 degrees of POSITIVE caster. we used to set front ends up by driver style. Little ol'lady, she gets negative caster, allows for easier steering, but cuts down on stability. Salesman always out on the highway, he gets positive caster, as much as I can give him. Positive, as has been said here increases stability at highway speeds.
My 29 is set up with .75+ degrees positive camber (Rt Side), .50+degrees (left side) 6+ degrees caster and 1/16th toe-in (with radials). It runs down the road with one finger steering at any speed and that's the way I like it.

I am not sure what you are saying with .75 Rt side and .50 left side 6+ degrees caster??

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Glenn I forgot to ask you can I just use my angle finder if need to set up or check the front end?

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Modfather,
Sorry about that it's an old habit from my bench days. I would write down the actual settings so I could compare them to the new settings to see the difference in alignment. So .75+ would be 3/4's of a degree of positive camber.
To check your camber you can use an angle finder on the top of the king pin. Albeit, the best way to get it right would be to find a hot rod friendly alignment shop and get a 4 wheel alignment. That would tell you if the axles are square to each other and to the frame.

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Mike,

just enough???

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Mod,

Rochie is right....You can use an angle finder ... to get Caster

And....he is also right about true-ing the car

Front and Back axel centered to the car and square to each other

Making a car square is not hard....(you can do it yourself)....but it is involved and time consuming

A flat, level surface, a chalk string line, a plumb bob, a good measuring tape (and an extra set of hands)

a notebook to record measurements, and all wrenches or tools needed to adjust front and rear end.

To explain how to do it is more than my fat fingers can type....pm me with your number and we'll talk

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

Like Grumps says about 4" to 5" is about the least you want to go. Less you will scrape to often or get hung up. More and you won't.
The question is are you setting ride height to be legal or be safe? To me the question is what is going to hit first? Frame, cool them marks are badges of honor. Oil pan, brake lines, steering linkage etc. That can be dangerous.
My truck is about 4" or so, yep it scrapes sometimes. But everything on the truck is above the frame.
Alignment on the straight axle Camber 0
Caster 7 degrees pos
Toe 1/16" in.
It drives excellent, 160 KPH no problem, corners like it's on rails.