Pertronix?

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

Pertronix?

jonny z · LONDON, ONT

"no"u just take the 2 wire,s to the coil 12 volts

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Depends on the setup .. go with whatever pertronix says . normally if you buy the coil and ignition unit as a set you don't need it . but if the resistance of your coil is out of spec to what they say it should be you do. thier site give good detail for each setup and a tec line.

DavidP · BRADFORD, ONT

slim wrote:
Depends on the setup .. go with whatever pertronix says . normally if you buy the coil and ignition unit as a set you don't need it . but if the resistance of your coil is out of spec to what they say it should be you do. thier site give good detail for each setup and a tec line.

I agree with what 'slim' just wrote ...

I've been running 'Pertronix' for almost 10 years now ... trouble free ... with a ballast resister in my case ...

I had been hearing YES & NO for using the ballast resistor from various sources when I was installing it too ... and I called Pertronix for the correct answer when I couldn't figure out the instructions at the time ...

Maybe some of the problems with them failing on some cars ... was when they really required the ballast resistor and it wasn't used ???

IMHO

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Mike,
I run a ballast in the 57 (external resister) and no ballast in the 29 (internal resistance)

fatchuk · ST MARYS, ONTARIO

Although I do not remember the exact specs.. I do remember installing one on a mid 70s GM and having some trouble with it till I read the instructions clearly..The vehicle I was installing it on was a mid 70s olds and I had some trouble till I figured out and remembered that GM in those years had the ignition wire already had a ballast or a resister built right into the wire coming into the coil so pay attention to that part of the instructions and make sure if your working on a GM that you are aware that GM had a resister wire in the ignition circuit..and I believe you have incorporate that into the install..

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

Thanx guys. Wayne - how do you know if the coil has an internal resistor?

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

Sounds like it will run with the ballast resistor but they recommend you remove it, at least the instructions for the original ignitor state such.

http://www.pertronix.com/docs/instruction-sheets/1141.pdf

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Mike,
check the Ohm…age!

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

I pulled my coil out and I see it says must use with resistor. I think I'll stop by Westside performance tomorrow morning and pick up a Pertronix coil. I need to go to Chatham anyhow to match up a little more paint. Lost the damn code!

Chris58 · WATERFORD, ONT

Been running one in my Belair/283 for some 15 years with the ballast resistor. My 348 Delray also has one with the ballast resistor too. Instant noticeable improvement in starting and high rpms, plus no friggin around with points ever again.

Highly recommended.

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

Got a Pertronix coil and it fired right up.

2drpost · KETTLEBY, ONT

heard good things about this, breakerless se

uses your single distributor wire

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251431414918?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

Mike,
will you be ready for the Shakers reunion. I'll call you later in the week and talk about it OK

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

Chris58 wrote:
Been running one in my Belair/283 for some 15 years with the ballast resistor. My 348 Delray also has one with the ballast resistor too. Instant noticeable improvement in starting and high rpms, plus no friggin around with points ever again.
Highly recommended.

I had quite a few people asking me if Pertronix would trigger the CD ignition I build and I kept saying no. Finally I was asked too many times so I bought a Pertronix to fit the Ford V8 distributor that is in the old spark gap test machine I'm using. Pertronix triggers the CDI just fine and the switch on the CDI box will switch from CD to STD which in this case is Pertronix only instead of points only.

What I noticed right away, is that Pertronix gives a weaker spark than points. Maybe hard to believe when some of you have had performance increases when switching to Pertronix from points, but let me explain. Points do not switch cleanly at very low rpm such as on the starter motor as a large portion of the energy leaks away through arcing at the points. Speed the points opening a little as rpm rises and they switch cleanly. Speed it up some more and points start to bounce which effectively reduces the dwell time and makes for a weak spark. Pertronix switch cleanly no matter how slowly the engine is turning or how fast, but the spark is weaker than points for the rpm range where points are switching cleanly and not bouncing excessively. Another plus for Pertronix is that you don't need to get the file out every few thousand miles like you do with points switching the high coil current. But, clean points give a much stronger spark than Pertronix.

The reason Pertronix is weaker (and very noticeably so, which is why I investigated) is that there is an inherent voltage drop from the semiconductors that do the switching. On the one I tested that voltage drop is nearly constant at 0.9V from 6V to 14V. The company literature for the 6V Pertronix indicates that it has a 1.2V drop which in my opinion would be unacceptable on a 6V system. I had some other folks test their Pertronix and the voltage drop varied from 1V to 1.3V.

To realize how much this reduces spark energy you have to understand that the energy stored in the coil is proportional to the current squared. If you halve the voltage, you have the current through the coil and the stored energy is 1/4. For example, if you have 4 units of energy at 12V and the battery voltage drops to 6V, you have 1 unit of energy. A 1V drop in voltage from the Pertronix reduces the energy at 12V to 80% or 3.2 energy units. At 6V with Pertronix the energy is only 70% of points, so now you only have 0.7 energy units. What I am saying is that with points ignition you already have a weak spark and with Pertronix it is considerably weaker than points right in the rpm range where you really want it to be stronger. It would also be completely useless getting a car started with a weak battery unless the plug gap is very small. Don't forget that a corresponding decrease in spark energy also means a reduction in available voltage so you need a smaller spark gap. That's the key to making Pertronix work, cuz it's a gutless spark.

By the way, for those that are electrically challenged, the voltage drop of semiconductors is akin to the pressure drop of pumping water uphill. The pressure drop is there and almost constant no matter how much pump pressure is applied, so it subtracts directly off the available pump pressure. Or, in the case of your car, directly off the battery voltage. The coil primary resistance on the other hand is akin to the pressure drop that a throttling valve would have at the pump discharge. The amount by which it reduces flow is dependent on the applied pump pressure. The ballast resistor or coil primary resistance is just like a throttling valve. Fred

sasquatch · NORTH BAY, ONT

Nicely posted info Fred.

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

Another fault I found with Pertronix is that it is susceptable to AC ripple or voltage spikes such as could occur with a noisy generator or alternator. The same sort of spikes cause 'mystery' computer codes often on modern cars. In the case of Pertronix, it disrupts the Pertronix trigger circuit and causes it not switch when it should. When triggering the CDI, it always switches cleanly because the filter capacitor built into the CDI absorbs any of the voltage transients or ripple. If you are having some misfires with Pertronix and the voltage is good and you can't find the reason, try installing a capacitor of 10uF or more from the coil positive (supply side) to ground. That's the same as where Ford and others put the radio noise suppression capacitor on some cars. It might help. Fred

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

Good info Fred. How about the spark when using a 40,000 volt Perronix coil? I asked Westside about using an MSD coil and they thought it might burn out the Pertronix conversion.

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

Rochie wrote:
Mike,
will you be ready for the Shakers reunion. I'll call you later in the week and talk about it OK

Hi Wayne. That's what I'm gunning for but I do have a few other problems to sort out. Need to grab someone to help bleed the brakes once more and the motor, while starting and running is idling very rough and quits after about a minute or so, almost like it's running out of gas. My upholstery guy still hasn't completed the kick panels, although I'm not too worried about that. I'd like to put a few miles on the car before the Shaker's party. Need to get off my butt.

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

Ragtop wrote:
Good info Fred. How about the spark when using a 40,000 volt Perronix coil? I asked Westside about using an MSD coil and they thought it might burn out the Pertronix conversion.

I can't say whether the Pertronix coil would help compensate for the weak spark or not, but regardless of the coil used the Pertronix will always have a weaker spark than points in the percentages I gave since both points and Pertronix create a spark by the same method. I haven't heard anything bad about Pertronix coils but I also have never tested one. That will be on my list of things to do as money permits. I did my testing with a 3.5 ohm primary resistance Bosch coil (from a 68 Volvo) and a 3.5ohm Standard brand coil bought more recently, and a couple of no-name coils of unknown origins. The results were very similar between coils, with the newer standard brand coil giving the worst results with points or pertronix. That cheap coil made less difference with the CD ignition, but a coil is merely a pulse transformer with the CDI. Not that a CDI doesn't need a quality coil, but in this case it doesn't matter as much, at least for the CDI I'm making.

Generally speaking, trying to make up for a weak spark by going to a higher turns ratio coil so the available voltage is higher, just reduces the spark energy even more. So, you might get a spark to jump the gap but it might not be powerful enough to ignite fuel. You can't get something for nothing. A sports coil usually results in a weaker spark when used with points or pertronix, but I have seen where a quality high turns ratio coil out-performed a low quality, low turns ratio coil. It just depends on how much wire and iron is inside. I think some of the new coils are mostly oil with very little wire or iron core. Cheaper and cheaper all the time. The Pertronix coil may well be high quality, which can only help. Fred

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Pertronix calls for a 1.5 ohm coil on a 8 and 3 ohm on a 4 and 6 cylinder using 12v and 1.5 ohm for 4 and 6 and .6 for 8 cylinders using 6 volt and to leave the start bypass wire hooked up , no point with a resistance coil but would help with a ballast resistor for start up. 3.5 ohms is going to kick the voltage down almost to a critical level. I also would check with their tech line if solid core wires are compatible with a cd ignition . I know they are not with their Igniter 11. Doesn't really concern me one way or the other , but in all fairness to pertronix a test should be run within their given specs .

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

slim wrote:
Pertronix calls for a 1.5 ohm coil on a 8 and 3 ohm on a 4 and 6 cylinder using 12v and 1.5 ohm for 4 and 6 and .6 for 8 cylinders using 6 volt and to leave the start bypass wire hooked up , no point with a resistance coil but would help with a ballast resistor for start up. 3.5 ohms is going to kick the voltage down almost to a critical level. I also would check with their tech line if solid core wires are compatible with a cd ignition . I know they are not with their Igniter 11. Doesn't really concern me one way or the other , but in all fairness to pertronix a test should be run within their given specs .

We could quibble over 0.5ohm, but the reality is that you will get a weaker spark with Pertronix. Just something to be aware of. By the way, my CDI is compatible with solid core wires. It will not hiccup like some of the modern microprocessor controlled units. It doesn't care what type of wire. As for the Pertronix, you will want the lowest resistance wire possible. In my tests, RMI did not cause any upsets to the Pertronix. That's the Pertronix 1. Pertronix 2 might be a different kettle. Fred

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

OK Fred,what do you suggest we run in stead of a Pertronix unit???? Your's???

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

Rochie wrote:
OK Fred,what do you suggest we run in stead of a Pertronix unit???? Your's???

The point of the discussion is that if you want a performance improvement, a Pertronix will only help on a medium to low compression engine. It is a low energy ignition despite the advertising hype, and lower energy than points. Don't shoot the messenger please. I guess you don't want to buy one of my CDIs? This is a hobby so I really don't care. LOL Fred

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

I fail to understand where you get .5 ohms your original post states you installed the pertronix in a ford v8 distributor. Pertronix clearly calls for 1.5 ohm in a 8 cylinder at 12 volts . You clearly state you used a 3.5 ohm coil over double the recommended resistance.

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

slim wrote:
I fail to understand where you get .5 ohms your original post states you installed the pertronix in a ford v8 distributor. Pertronix clearly calls for 1.5 ohm in a 8 cylinder at 12 volts . You clearly state you used a 3.5 ohm coil over double the recommended resistance.

Slim, It doesn't matter what the resistance the coil I was using to make the comparison between points and pertronix. The difference in percentage is the same for a given coil regardless of the coil resistance. Apples to apples comparison. The results would be exactly the same if I used a 1.5 ohm coil except that both the pertronix and points would have a higher energy spark. The percentage difference in energy between the two would be exactly the same. Fred

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

slim wrote:
Pertronix calls for a 1.5 ohm coil on a 8 and 3 ohm on a 4 and 6 cylinder using 12v and 1.5 ohm for 4 and 6 and .6 for 8 cylinders using 6 volt and to leave the start bypass wire hooked up , no point with a resistance coil but would help with a ballast resistor for start up. 3.5 ohms is going to kick the voltage down almost to a critical level. I also would check with their tech line if solid core wires are compatible with a cd ignition . I know they are not with their Igniter 11. Doesn't really concern me one way or the other , but in all fairness to pertronix a test should be run within their given specs .

wITH A PERTRONIX COIL IN A v8 APPLICATION (STREET OR RACE) THEY RECOMMEND NO BALLAST RESISTOR

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

From where I'm sitting it's hard to take your test results seriously . Not only did you misread the manufacturer's spec's you clearly disregarded them again when I pointed it out to you in a previous post. So what you want us to believe is for the last 20 or so years pertronix has been selling a product that doesn't live up to the claims they say it doe's and no one has bothered to challenge there results . Kind of hard to believe.

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Ragtop wrote:
slim wrote:
Pertronix calls for a 1.5 ohm coil on a 8 and 3 ohm on a 4 and 6 cylinder using 12v and 1.5 ohm for 4 and 6 and .6 for 8 cylinders using 6 volt and to leave the start bypass wire hooked up , no point with a resistance coil but would help with a ballast resistor for start up. 3.5 ohms is going to kick the voltage down almost to a critical level. I also would check with their tech line if solid core wires are compatible with a cd ignition . I know they are not with their Igniter 11. Doesn't really concern me one way or the other , but in all fairness to pertronix a test should be run within their given specs .
wITH A PERTRONIX COIL IN A v8 APPLICATION (STREET OR RACE) THEY RECOMMEND NO BALLAST RESISTOR

Resistor is built into the pertronix coil so the ballast resistor is eliminated

Use with: System

Voltage Cylinders Primary

Resistance

Recommended Flamethrower

Coils

Black Chrome Epoxy

Ignitor Only 12V 8 1.5 ohms 40011 40001 40111

Ignitor Only 12V 4 & 6 3.0 ohms 40511 40501 40611

Ignitor Only 6V 8 0.6 ohms 45011 45001 45111

Ignitor Only 6V 4 & 6 1.5 ohms 40011 40001 40111

Agricultural & Industrial

Ignitor Only 12V 1,2,3,4, & 6 2.8 ohms 28010 or 40511, 40501, 40611

Ignitor Only 12V 8 1.5 ohms 40011 40001 40111

Ignitor Only 6V 1,2,3,4, & 6 1.5 ohms 40011 40011 40111

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

hemi43 wrote:

Thanks for the informative post.

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

slim wrote:
From where I'm sitting it's hard to take your test results seriously . Not only did you misread the manufacturer's spec's you clearly disregarded them again when I pointed it out to you in a previous post. So what you want us to believe is for the last 20 or so years pertronix has been selling a product that doesn't live up to the claims they say it doe's and no one has bothered to challenge there results . Kind of hard to believe.

Slim,

Like I said, the testing was comparative so the type of coil I used was immaterial. The same results would be given if I used the recommended 3 ohm coil on the V8 distributor that is in the test rig I have. Incidentally, that test rig could have any points type distributor in it to fire the adjustable spark gap (which is calibrated to read voltage). This is not an engine I tested the Pertronix on. It's better, because I can control the speed accurately and measure the secondary voltage accurately.

I was also quite surprised to learn that Pertronix has a weaker spark than points. Once I saw the secondary voltage was low, I investigated further and measured the voltage drop across the Pertronix when the electronic switch was closed and it read 0.9V. That's very easy to do and it actually jives with the literature for the troubleshooting procedure for the 6V pertronix you can find on-line, except there it mentions a 1.2V drop. The actual energy reduction caused by the semiconductor voltage drop was done by simple math concepts. You do not need actual values to do the math if all you want for results are percentage comparisons. (You can assume the coil inductance is a constant for a given coil for example which makes it a '1') You'll notice that I said 'energy units' in my first post, as the energy is for comparison only and real unit values are not required to do that. That's something they should teach in high school but I learned to do myself as an adult. It can save a lot of time analysing things.

As far as nobody posting this before, why should that surprise you? There are plenty of things that come to light years after something has been in production. The company certainly knows, but has carefully avoided mentioning its significance. There are plenty of complaints on forums of 6V Pertronix not working correctly such as the engine missing when the headlights are turned on etc. That's because a 0.9 to 1.2V drop is very significant when you only have maybe 7.5 volts to start with. Take it or leave it, but these are facts and easily tested by yourself if you have any doubts. Fred

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Fred Winterburn wrote:
slim wrote:
From where I'm sitting it's hard to take your test results seriously . Not only did you misread the manufacturer's spec's you clearly disregarded them again when I pointed it out to you in a previous post. So what you want us to believe is for the last 20 or so years pertronix has been selling a product that doesn't live up to the claims they say it doe's and no one has bothered to challenge there results . Kind of hard to believe.
Slim,
     Like I said, the testing was comparative so the type of coil I used was immaterial. The same results would be given if I used the recommended 3 ohm coil on the V8 distributor that is in the test rig I have. Incidentally, that test rig could have any points type distributor in it to fire the adjustable spark gap (which is calibrated to read voltage). This is not an engine I tested the Pertronix on. It's better, because I can control the speed accurately and measure the secondary voltage accurately.
       I was also quite surprised to learn that Pertronix has a weaker spark than points. Once I saw the secondary voltage was low, I investigated further and measured the voltage drop across the Pertronix when the electronic switch was closed and it read 0.9V. That's very easy to do and it actually jives with the literature for the troubleshooting procedure for the 6V pertronix you can find on-line, except there it mentions a 1.2V drop. The actual energy reduction caused by the semiconductor voltage drop was done by simple math concepts. You do not need actual values to do the math if all you want for results are percentage comparisons. (You can assume the coil inductance is a constant for a given coil for example which makes it a '1') You'll notice that I said 'energy units' in my first post, as the energy is for comparison only and real unit values are not required to do that. That's something they should teach in high school but I learned to do myself as an adult. It can save a lot of time analysing things.
      As far as nobody posting this before, why should that surprise you? There are plenty of things that come to light years after something has been in production. The company certainly knows, but has carefully avoided mentioning its significance. There are plenty of complaints on forums of 6V Pertronix not working correctly such as the engine missing when the headlights are turned on etc. That's because a 0.9 to 1.2V drop is very significant when you only have maybe 7.5 volts to start with. Take it or leave it, but these are facts and easily tested by yourself if you have any doubts. Fred

Wow Fred you have just proven why there are so many complaints with problems. Read the instructions 3 ohms is not the recommended resistance for any application at 6 volts or any 8 cylinder . you wonder why your secondary voltage is low and why it bounces its obviously clear. I'm more surprised that it ran at all. . You are way below the point that any reliable data could be used for any calculation . At 6x the recommended resistance You are firing a partially charged coil. Unbelievable.

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

Wow Fred you have just proven why there are so many complaints with problems. Read the instructions 3 ohms is not the recommended resistance for any application at 6 volts or any 8 cylinder . you wonder why your secondary voltage is low and why it bounces its obviously clear. I'm more surprised that it ran at all. . You are way below the point that any reliable data could be used for any calculation . At 6x the recommended resistance You are firing a partially charged coil. Unbelievable.

Slim, Obviously you aren't getting it. There is a difference between a quantitative measurement and a qualitative measurement. The percentage difference is a qualitative measurement and applies to any coil you will ever find including a pertronix flamethrower, a coil requiring an external ballast, or one with 1.5 ohms, 3ohms or 3.5 ohms or anything in between. It doesn't matter as the voltage with pertronix will be reduced by the same percentage. A percentage is a ratio and in this case that ratio is constant regardless of the coil used. The amount of spark energy will be lower with a high ohmage coil but the RATIO of spark energy of the Pertronix to Points will be the same. Of course there will be less energy with a 3.5 ohm coil compared to a 1ohm coil (read my first post with the analogy of a throttling valve). And of course I know that 6V systems do not use 3.5 ohm coils! You'd be lucky to have the engine run properly even with points. The people that were having problems with 6V Pertronix were using proper 6V coils. I'm sure there are enough folks on this forum that understand what I've explained. Slim, you shouldn't try to teach your Grandmother how to milk ducks. Good Grief! Fred

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Fred your theory is great but did you bother to look at the wiring diagram the module is supplied with 12 or 6 volts it completes the ground circuit of the coil . its irrelevant that it takes .92 volt unless its wired on the wrong side of the resistor or the wire is damaged. the module itself sends no + output to the coil in any way and unless something is wrong should not affect the primary voltage of the coil in anyway for arguments sake you could run two separate wires from a 12 volt source and it would still function .

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

slim wrote:
Fred your theory is great but did you bother to look at the wiring diagram the module is supplied with 12 or 6 volts it completes the ground circuit of the coil . its irrelevant that it takes .92 volt unless its wired on the wrong side of the resistor or the wire is damaged. the module itself sends no + output to the coil in any way and unless something is wrong should not affect the primary voltage of the coil in anyway for arguments sake you could run two separate wires from a 12 volt source and it would still function .

Slim, electricity doesn't work that way. You should familiarize yourself with the laws of basic electricity. Start with ohms law and work your way up. In this particular series circuit it doesn't matter where the voltage drop is. And Yes it was hooked up correctly. Points have zero voltage drop when they are clean and Pertronix always has around 1V as explained earlier. Fred

meester_jamie · GALT, ONT

slim wrote:
Depends on the setup .. go with whatever pertronix says . normally if you buy the coil and ignition unit as a set you don't need it . but if the resistance of your coil is out of spec to what they say it should be you do. thier site give good detail for each setup and a tec line.

Slim,, you answered the OP question correctly.. but

Slim, Fred is correct. I look at the question,, do you want high energy spark... or reliable spark? pertronics is for reliable spark. it gives the same energy at all rpm.. and for a lot of miles....... where as points may give a little better spark when clean and adj correctly, that only lasts for a few hundred miles.. then the wear.. and change the dwell, and timing,, and need adj... repeat.. then replace... so point adj every 4k miles,, replace every 20k miles.. at $5 per points, you will have $25 tied up every 100k miles... or.. you can buy pertronix... that will last 100k miles easy ,, for $80.... and never have to adj, or replace in that 100k miles..

if you want big high energy spark for high compression engines.. then try 44 amps !!! .. well,, a street car might only need 20 amps.
www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3099/PageID/6330/Nerds-Eye-View--Inside-10000-horsepower.aspx

-- Edited by meester_jamie on Monday 19th of May 2014 11:53:28 PM

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

With a electronic ignition or a capacitor discharge The points or the module become a switching device . the coil discharge does not flow through them like a original points setup if it did I would have to agree with Ohms law But the module merely acts as a coil in a relay opening or closing a gate for the current to flow through

Ragtop · BELLE RIVER, ONT

Gee! didn't mean to start a fight. Lots of short fuses on this forum.

Fred Winterburn · RIPLEY, ONT

Ragtop wrote:
Gee! didn't mean to start a fight. Lots of short fuses on this forum.

So, To explain how a fuse works and why they are rated in amps as opposed to watts: A fuse is designed to carry current without disrupting the normal current to a load and so the resistance is kept very small. For all intents and purposes it is zero within the rated current draw of the load it supplies. What makes a fuse a safety device is that it melts and forms an open circuit. It takes heat to do that. Heat output is measured in watts which is current squared X resistance. Of course the resistance isn't actually zero but close enough that any heat generated across the fuse element is mostly based on the current ( amperage) squared. The amount of resistance is ignored even though it exists (and must exist for there to be heat generated) so the rating is always in amps. This makes the fuse rating independent of the applied voltage, so if you choose a 1 amp fuse it is acceptable for a large range of voltage applications.

Now, a short fuse is just me getting P+++++OFF! Just kidding, Fred

Chris58 · WATERFORD, ONT

Hey Fred, if nothing else, at least your responses are educated, substantiated, and well presented. You lost me in the earliest post!
All I can say is, my old 283 runs better and more reliably and with less maintenance since installing the Pertronix. I really enjoyed the education though. Perhaps in a performance engine, the results may be more noticeable one way or the other.