Brake lines

V2addict · CRAIGHURST, ONT

Brake lines

V2addict · CRAIGHURST, ONT

No pictures even?

OK I will commence, to make them my way, but I warned you all, you can't laugh at me or comment on how I should have done this or should have done that! LOL

Just kidding of course, any input welcome.

V2

Rochie · LONDON, ONT

V2,
I always put a coil into lines if there is vibration involved. Stainless just like any kind of tube will work harden and crack.

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

mine are piped straight in - looks a lot better

pretty sure the coil was more for ease of installation on the assembly line to cover for the various size and tolerance discrepancies - gotta remember every item on assembly is under 45 seconds so no time to fool around getting something to fit

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

V2addict wrote:
I'm running 304 S.S. lines and AN fittings (37deg.)
my question is I have seen people wind the lines in a coil of some sort where they enter the master cylinder
I have also seen them piped right in, is the vibration loop necessary or is this personal preference,refrigeration lines with copper,

it seems to me that s.s. would be less prone to stress cracks than copper also considering the AN fittings?

yes

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

Personally I would chuck the stainless and use this....

link with more info... http://store.fedhillusa.com

As far as AN fitting go here is something you should all read. Make up your own mind but with 35 years in the hydraulic industry Ill guaranty you won't find them on any brake system I work on.....http://www.mechanicsupport.com/articlestronger.html Ive personally seen in excess of a few hundred of the industrial version fail in the last 35 years so. Make up your own mind

jim_ss409 · BARRIE, ONTARIO

I like the cunifer line too. It goes by a few different names but I think it's a combination of copper and nickel. It's much easier to work with than stainless. It's getting to be pretty popular so you can get it at most of the auto supply places like NAPA.

If you do use a loop or two, they say it's best to run the loops sort of parallel to the ground.
They say it can be hard to bleed trapped air out of vertical loops.

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

I have used an fitting on a couple of builds

I will never go back to the old style

I have plumbed complete systems without 1 leak

Or problem

S S lines are harder to bend but look great when done right

You can use coils if you have room for athetics

I wouldnt worry about straight lines

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

This subject has been done a few times

Good advice so far

What size lines are you using?

-- Edited by poncho62 on Monday 24th of November 2014 06:35:39 AM

V2addict · CRAIGHURST, ONT

Thanks for the replies, it seems to be a split, I have run all S.S. but I have not had any trouble with bending it, I have used it before on 3000psi gas lines on N.G. pumping stations and we had coils there but the shake like crazy and require a vibration loop.

Cat in the Hat, I ended up buying the Wilwood pedals and so far they are working out great for installation. I am running 3/16 S.S. as recommended from a shop, I hope its not to small, I now see a lot of guys running 1/4.

Thanks for all the great info.

V2

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

I've personally never used the AN fittings, so I have no experience with them, but I would have to side with Slim on that.

The stainless lines themselves, generally need a bit of extra tightening to seal properly, at least using the standard double flare Cunifer type.

PS; What does "Athetics" mean? wink

-- Edited by poncho62 on Monday 24th of November 2014 06:37:45 AM

Thanks Harry, lol, good catch. some people just can't leave well enough alone.

-- Edited by Gazoo on Monday 24th of November 2014 07:03:20 AM

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

V2addict wrote:
Thanks for the replies, it seems to be a split, I have run all S.S. but I have not had any trouble with bending it, I have used it before on 3000psi gas lines on N.G. pumping stations and we had coils there but the shake like crazy and require a vibration loop.

Cat in the Hat, I ended up buying the Wilwood pedals and so far they are working out great for installation. I am running 3/16 S.S. as recommended from a shop, I hope its not to small, I now see a lot of guys running 1/4.

Thanks for all the great info.

V2

Uh oh, don't mention 1/4" on this forum. It upsets the "builder" gods.

Fordy Acres Car Farm · DORCHESTER, ONT

Gazoo wrote:
V2addict wrote:
Thanks for the replies, it seems to be a split, I have run all S.S. but I have not had any trouble with bending it, I have used it before on 3000psi gas lines on N.G. pumping stations and we had coils there but the shake like crazy and require a vibration loop.

Cat in the Hat, I ended up buying the Wilwood pedals and so far they are working out great for installation. I am running 3/16 S.S. as recommended from a shop, I hope its not to small, I now see a lot of guys running 1/4.

Thanks for all the great info.

V2
Uh oh, don't mention 1/4" on this forum. It upsets the "builder" gods.

Seriously? ^^ ("Thanks Harry, lol, good catch. some people just can't leave well enough alone.")

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Fordy Acres Car Farm wrote:
Gazoo wrote:
V2addict wrote:
Thanks for the replies, it seems to be a split, I have run all S.S. but I have not had any trouble with bending it, I have used it before on 3000psi gas lines on N.G. pumping stations and we had coils there but the shake like crazy and require a vibration loop.

Cat in the Hat, I ended up buying the Wilwood pedals and so far they are working out great for installation. I am running 3/16 S.S. as recommended from a shop, I hope its not to small, I now see a lot of guys running 1/4.

Thanks for all the great info.

V2
Uh oh, don't mention 1/4" on this forum. It upsets the "builder" gods.
Seriously? ^^ ("Thanks Harry, lol, good catch. some people just can't leave well enough alone.")

Ya seriously! Kitty cat made reference about A Holes etc... But the funny part is, Harry left the "what size brake lines?" and deleted the rest of his post.

If you'd like to know.

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

I have nothing against AN fittings or stainless tube I frankly won't use them because of cost and ease of use . I refuse to use the industrial JIC for the same reason I won't use soft cooper tube. A 3/16 AN nut and sleeve retail at around 4 bucks each a strait adapter will be close to 8 or 9 bucks an forged elbow 20 The industrial stuff the lot i just mentioned would be less then 5 bucks total . The difference is the same as copper vs steel. brake systems require AN fittings. AN has became a dangerous generic term for what is being sold and the problem is worse with almost 100% of it coming from China now. Tubing is the same story not holding spec sure the cheaper 3/16 .028 wall tube is more cost effective but if in reality its .021 along most of its length you just lost a 1/3rd of your burst pressure and the ends are now significantly more prone to crack. the biggest problem with the home brake job is cheap flaring tools. personally i haven't seen one worth using for under 300 bucks . Im as cheep as they come but in the end you get what you pay for

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Angelo, you are using the same system I have used on my last 5 builds

Wilwood dual Master...AN fittings

Works Great

Slim I agree.....Flaring tool makes all the difference...I use a Matco Flaring tool....perfect flares every time

Great to see the VULTURES are still sitting in the trees

RacerRick · TORONTO, ONT

it depends on the vehicle. A body on frame with rubber mounts needs the coils to allow for the movement between the frame and body. The coils will allow the brake lines to flex without work hardening. I put them in by wrapping the lines around a full can of pop. lol

If the body and frame is solid mounted, is unibody, or has mounts that don't allow movement, I don't think the loops are all that critical.

The Cunifer lines are really nice to work with but you have to be careful when tightening the flares - over tighten them and you will break the flare off and it will leak. You won't know you even did it until you take it apart.

I use a blue point flaring tool - works mint. I have three broken cheaper ones.

I only use brand name AN fittings when I use them, so I have never had a problem with bad fittings. If you buy name brand stuff from a reputable source, I don't think you will ever have a problem with AN fittings.

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

RacerRick wrote:
it depends on the vehicle. A body on frame with rubber mounts needs the coils to allow for the movement between the frame and body. The coils will allow the brake lines to flex without work hardening. I put them in by wrapping the lines around a full can of pop. lol

If the body and frame is solid mounted, is unibody, or has mounts that don't allow movement, I don't think the loops are all that critical.

The Cunifer lines are really nice to work with but you have to be careful when tightening the flares - over tighten them and you will break the flare off and it will leak. You won't know you even did it until you take it apart.

I use a blue point flaring tool - works mint. I have three broken cheaper ones.

I only use brand name AN fittings when I use them, so I have never had a problem with bad fittings. If you buy name brand stuff from a reputable source, I don't think you will ever have a problem with AN fittings.

Rick thats exactly what i was talking about with the off shore tubeing The stuff should never crack from over tightening here is the problem

as for flaring tools this is the one I use you could chuck it out of a plane at 10.000 feet and it would still work

-- Edited by slim on Monday 24th of November 2014 11:21:30 AM

V2addict · CRAIGHURST, ONT

All good advice,

Thank you

Angelo

BARRIE, ONTARIO

One other thing about the copper nickel line is , if it gets wet ie daily driven vehicle it will turn green an fuzzy . that pretty coppery look wont last long ..77.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

At the risk of being called a "Know it all" again, by the outspoken one... wink

Are you by any chance running these lines under a closed hood?

The reason I'm asking, is the coils are used for more then one reason.

1) the vibration (you mentioned).
2) the flex (Rick mentioned).

But there is also a 3rd reason, and it relates to heat expansion of the tubing, more so for closed hoods and close to exhaust manifold application.
The coil will absorb (cushion) the linear expansion.

Maybe that's what "Athetics" mean.... biggrin .

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

OMG I forgot the most important reason for coiling

Brake lines...... HEAT EXPANSION OF BRAKE LINES

In the last year i have read about thousands of hotrods

Crashing from lines expanding and blowing brake fluid everywhere!

Crashing and killing and maiming innocent hot rodders

Angelo. Your a smart guy and there have been some good answers from smart

People like Slim and Rick. Others should sit down before they hurt themselves

V2addict · CRAIGHURST, ONT

HA HA HA Cat in The Hat,

You maka me laugh!

I know nothing, that's why I ask. I will try to coil it due to that being my original thought, but I'm fussy and that means I will ruin a lot of ss getting them all to look the way I want, also my cab is isolated with rubber at the front and a dog bone link out back so I think its best to coil.

Angelo

V2addict · CRAIGHURST, ONT

Gazoo wrote:
At the risk of being called a "Know it all" again, by the outspoken one...

Are you by any chance running these lines under a closed hood?

The reason I'm asking, is the coils are used for more then one reason.

1) the vibration (you mentioned).
2) the flex (Rick mentioned).

But there is also a 3rd reason, and it relates to heat expansion of the tubing, more so for closed hoods and close to exhaust manifold application.
The coil will absorb (cushion) the linear expansion.

Maybe that's what "Athetics" mean.....

Thanks great to know, I have done as much as I could keeping it away from the exhaust and it is under the hood as well as over the header on the driver side, so radiant heat will defiantly be a concern!

Angelo

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Cat in the Hat wrote:
OMG I forgot the most important reason for coiling

Brake lines...... HEAT EXPANSION OF BRAKE LINES

In the last year i have read about thousands of hotrods

Crashing from lines expanding and blowing brake fluid everywhere!

Crashing and killing and maiming innocent hot rodders

Angelo. Your a smart guy and there have been some good answers from smart

People like Slim and Rick. Others should sit down before they hurt themselves

OMG, I suppose thousands of hotrods also are crashing from the vibration in the line, or the extra cushioning to compensate for body frame mount.

It's an engineered safety net, maybe WAYYYY over your head. You know in America where there's temperature from between -40*C and +30*C.

But thanks for the theatricals and the drama. wink

Best of my knowledge, no one mentioned anything about exploding lines.

Once again, you've proven yourself consistent at blowing everything out of context.

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

Gazoo wrote:

But there is also a 3rd reason, and it relates to heat expansion of the tubing, more so for closed hoods and close to exhaust manifold application.
The coil will absorb (cushion) the linear expansion.

Linear expansion? Seriously, where do you find this information. Please cite a reference. Being a mechanic for 28 years I have never ever heard that one.

You will have more heat in the brake caliper than you ever could generate under hood.Ever watch stock cars race at night? The rotors are red hot.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Lightspeed Mike wrote:
Gazoo wrote:

But there is also a 3rd reason, and it relates to heat expansion of the tubing, more so for closed hoods and close to exhaust manifold application.
The coil will absorb (cushion) the linear expansion.

Linear expansion? Seriously, where do you find this information. Please cite a reference. Being a mechanic for 28 years I have never ever heard that one.
You will have more heat in the brake caliper than you ever could generate under hood.Ever watch stock cars race at night? The rotors are red hot.

Flex lines.

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Yes you are a smart one You are

So from -40 to +30. How much would a

1-2-3-4-5-6 foot piece of S S brake line

Expand or contract ?

Please give answer to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch

For each length and prove. For extra points

You are ANAL ITICAL. GOOD JOB!

fatchuk · ST MARYS, ONTARIO

heat expanding the brake lines.. biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin that's a new one on me..but I am still learning ...I have only been apprenticing for 50 years...Of course I am a red-neck country boy don't get the city too often so maybe it has happed and I missed that one.. I use a piece of exhaust pipe to do it But I have never used stainless..so I am not sure of the flexability to do so..with stainless..If the lines were short and straight, the motion of the car would eventually crack the brake lines; the continual flexing of the master cyl at the fire wall and the body mounts would fatigue the metal line and eventually break it, just the way a spoon bent back and forth repeatedly will eventually break. By forming the brake line into a coil, the flexing in any one section is very small, and so puts almost no strain on the line...master cyl is bolted to the fire wall..(the body) lines are fixed to the proportioning/metering valve on (the Frame) something has to give ...I would say gazoo is an expert on brake lines...I can tell that from his post history on brake lines .. biggrin biggrin I do think he is a little out in the cold to long though.. smile ..I can understand rubber line expanding when they break down..but ....I am going to keep my eye out for brake lines damaged by heat..Interesting ..or baloney..not sure but I think I am gonna go make a sandwich..I will stay tunned..

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Hey, the gang's all here.
How about you prove it doesn't expand/contract.
It's kinda of the reason behind the vibration issues, that's why the coil.
'nuff said.

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Hey Mike. Im not as smart as some others on here

So i have been told

Can you and chuk help me out. Please

Would a brake flex line take more heat than

A Stainless steel line ?????

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Angelo, good choice on the coil.
Ignore the click.

fatchuk · ST MARYS, ONTARIO

Gazo said..

How about you prove it doesn't expand/contract.

It was your claim to fame ..so how about you defend it with some documented proof..I ain't sayin it ain't so..but you made the statememnt..where's the BEEF... confuse

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Good job Gazoo

You throw out a statement

I and others challenge your information

And not its up to me to prove or disprove

Your information

I never said it did or did not expand

I only asked for you to qualify your statement

Come on. Put your big boy pants on and prove your statement

I only asked to the 1/1000 of an inch

Dick Kirkpatrick · MILTON, ONTARIO

Not trying to pick sides here, I really am no smarter or dumber than you guys, but the automobile manufacturers ALL coiled their brake lines when they were adjacent to the master cylinder if it was located in the engine bay. The earlier cars with the master cylinders below the floorboards and not in the engine compartment did NOT coil the lines. My theory would be that heat would have to be involved for them to have made this decision. The manufacturers would not do this just for aesthetics and we know they don't like spending money if they don't have to.
I have always made brake lines with the best available steel lines and fittings available, whether just steel or stainless steel and double flared them no matter if they were going to the master or wheel cylinder.

Just sayin.................

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Good job Gazoo

You throw out a statement

I and others challenge your information

And not its up to me to prove or disprove

Your information

I never said it did or did not expand

I only asked for you to qualify your statement

Come on. Put your big boy pants on and prove your statement

I only asked to the 1/1000 of an inch

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

Wow. Glad I got to read all this before it gets deleted. I would have missed out on all this excellent info and entertainment all wrapped up in one post!! Where's my pop corn!!

I did appreciate the info on the copperlines going green because someone (off site) told me that it is easy to use and I should use it on my project. Green fuzzy wouldn't match my paint job so I think I will pass. LOL

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

Dick Kirkpatrick wrote:
Not trying to pick sides here, I really am no smarter or dumber than you guys, but the automobile manufacturers ALL coiled their brake lines when they were adjacent to the master cylinder if it was located in the engine bay. The earlier cars with the master cylinders below the floorboards and not in the engine compartment did NOT coil the lines. My theory would be that heat would have to be involved for them to have made this decision. The manufacturers would not do this just for aesthetics and we know they don't like spending money if they don't have to.
I have always made brake lines with the best available steel lines and fittings available, whether just steel or stainless steel and double flared them no matter if they were going to the master or wheel cylinder.

Just sayin.................

Not sure but weren't the masters under the floor boards attached to the frame rather than the body thus eliminating the flexing that would occur with the firewall mounted masters??

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Dick, from what I'm reading here...seems like the coils only purpose is "Athetics".

V2addict · CRAIGHURST, ONT

Ok thanks guys I'm all done with brakes!

Now on to carburetors!!

Which is best?

LOL

V2 Angelo

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

V2addict wrote:
Ok thanks guys I'm all done with brakes!

Now on to carburetors!!

Which is best?

LOL

V2 Angelo

Something tells me this ain't over yet...........

51 Styline · NIAGARA FALLS, ONT

Dick Kirkpatrick wrote:
Not trying to pick sides here, I really am no smarter or dumber than you guys, but the automobile manufacturers ALL coiled their brake lines when they were adjacent to the master cylinder if it was located in the engine bay. The earlier cars with the master cylinders below the floorboards and not in the engine compartment did NOT coil the lines. My theory would be that heat would have to be involved for them to have made this decision. The manufacturers would not do this just for aesthetics and we know they don't like spending money if they don't have to.
I have always made brake lines with the best available steel lines and fittings available, whether just steel or stainless steel and double flared them no matter if they were going to the master or wheel cylinder.

Just sayin.................

x2

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

slab wrote:
Dick Kirkpatrick wrote:
Not trying to pick sides here, I really am no smarter or dumber than you guys, but the automobile manufacturers ALL coiled their brake lines when they were adjacent to the master cylinder if it was located in the engine bay. The earlier cars with the master cylinders below the floorboards and not in the engine compartment did NOT coil the lines. My theory would be that heat would have to be involved for them to have made this decision. The manufacturers would not do this just for aesthetics and we know they don't like spending money if they don't have to.
I have always made brake lines with the best available steel lines and fittings available, whether just steel or stainless steel and double flared them no matter if they were going to the master or wheel cylinder.

Just sayin.................
Not sure but weren't the masters under the floor boards attached to the frame rather than the body thus eliminating the flexing that would occur with the firewall mounted masters??

Slab, they have coils in the lines of unibody cars also.

Just sayin'

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

Most entertaining post in months

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

Gazoo wrote:
slab wrote:
Dick Kirkpatrick wrote:
Not trying to pick sides here, I really am no smarter or dumber than you guys, but the automobile manufacturers ALL coiled their brake lines when they were adjacent to the master cylinder if it was located in the engine bay. The earlier cars with the master cylinders below the floorboards and not in the engine compartment did NOT coil the lines. My theory would be that heat would have to be involved for them to have made this decision. The manufacturers would not do this just for aesthetics and we know they don't like spending money if they don't have to.
I have always made brake lines with the best available steel lines and fittings available, whether just steel or stainless steel and double flared them no matter if they were going to the master or wheel cylinder.

Just sayin.................
Not sure but weren't the masters under the floor boards attached to the frame rather than the body thus eliminating the flexing that would occur with the firewall mounted masters??
Slab, they have coils in the lines of unibody cars also.
Just sayin'

Yes .. no argument there. But unibody cars are not known for being the most rigid and are prone to flexing.

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

Gazoo wrote:
Lightspeed Mike wrote:
Gazoo wrote:

But there is also a 3rd reason, and it relates to heat expansion of the tubing, more so for closed hoods and close to exhaust manifold application.
The coil will absorb (cushion) the linear expansion.

Linear expansion? Seriously, where do you find this information. Please cite a reference. Being a mechanic for 28 years I have never ever heard that one.
You will have more heat in the brake caliper than you ever could generate under hood.Ever watch stock cars race at night? The rotors are red hot.

Flex lines.

Flex lines flex they don't expand. If they did you would have a very poor pedal feel. The only reason a brake pedal moves is the movement of the caliper pistons and wheel cylinders. Don't believe me? Try this, put a set of pinch off pliers at the end of your flex lines and step on the pedal. The pedal hardly moves.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

fatchuk wrote:
Gazo said..
How about you prove it doesn't expand/contract.

It was your claim to fame ..so how about you defend it with some documented proof..I ain't sayin it ain't so..but you made the statememnt..where's the BEEF...

I don't need to prove anything, and it's already documented. Metal expands with temperature increases, and it contracts with temperature decrease.

It's rather simple.

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

Well since I have nothing better to do...I googled it and since everything on the interweb is true .....

The majority say it's for flexibility, ease of installation at the factory and one guy said that in an accident it would help keep the lines from braking open and spraying flameable fluids. I don't know just what I found..... I was hoping to find something about heat but it's time to put the kid to bed so my search ended. Couldn't find the evidence to help Gazoo or Grumps...I mean Cat in the Hat. Sorry

54vicky · OAKVILLE, ONT

so my 1/4" line become 3/16" or less if I drive in subzero temps and fail to ride the brakes.after giving birth most woman need there expansion repaired to return to pre expansion after suffering contractions.this is caused usually by retraction of the object of injection into the place of restriction after a period of 9 months.I guess I will use header wrap on my brake lines in the hot days of summer.

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

slab wrote:
Wow. Glad I got to read all this before it gets deleted. I would have missed out on all this excellent info and entertainment all wrapped up in one post!! Where's my pop corn!!

I did appreciate the info on the copperlines going green because someone (off site) told me that it is easy to use and I should use it on my project. Green fuzzy wouldn't match my paint job so I think I will pass. LOL

CU NI FE R . copper nickel iron they have been using derivatives of this combination in sea water for a few hundred years. Before someone clams it turns green and fuzzy they should check there facts 304 stainless will rust and discolor long before you see green fuzz. This stuff isn't new Volvo has been using it since the 70s and is standard on both Porsche and Audi. IT has already been said Buy from a reputable dealer that stand behind there product especially today when the market is flooded with knock offs . thats why I posted the link above For a few hundred bucks you can have every thing you need to do a car delivered to your door. They will deliver USPS also . Good people with a vested interest in only selling quality material. They value their reputation.