Brake lines

Dick Kirkpatrick · MILTON, ONTARIO

RE: Brake lines

toomuchjunk · S/W ONTARIO

so if the brake lines get warm/hot enough to expand what about the fluid inside the lines?
Does the fluid expand at the same rate or at a greater rate?
if the fluid doesn't expand you might not have brakes when you need them.
If the fluid expands at a greater rate the brakes would apply themselves.
TMJ

-- Edited by toomuchjunk on Tuesday 25th of November 2014 09:49:26 PM

slim · DUNDAS, ONT

From my calculation the 12" length of a 304 stainless tube would increase .1152 with a 100 degree temp rise or 12.115 long . The only time that this would create a problem is if it was sucured in a very ridged fashion. On a conventional frame This coil will absorb the difference in vibration reducing the chance of stress cracks. the ideal solution would be to jump this transition area with a flex line. ..... Cost is one factor and adding additional connections is another ( more places to leak )Cost is a good enough reason for the factory. If you look at most of them installed this way you won't find a clamp until the tube reaches the frame with 18 " or so of free line to the master. The coil will take the stress off the connection the weak link. As for why the factory buys tubing in a coil is its the cheapest way it comes, easy to store and less waste . say they bought 20 ' straight lengths and 2" a length was unusable thats 50" in a 500' coil . Most brake kits come with 25' 3/16 and 12' of 1/4 so call it 37' per car so 14 cars would eat up that 500' coil

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Thank you slim for answering what others

Talk about but couldnt figure out I guess some people can back

Up what they say others just spew to make themselves look

Knowledgable

I never said no coils. What i said was some people add coils for aesthetics

Fat fingers on a cell phone. Small things for small minds

What i meant was some people add multiple coils when

One will do. Adding clamps 18" away also allow flex

Good job slim for clearing this up

Angelo. Good question

Even though some wannabe know it alls have chirped in

I hope you got the answer you were looking for

Cant wait for the next question

BARRIE, ONTARIO

the shop I work for gets copper nickel line from motorcade outta Toronto and another supplier called avenue auto parts . we work on import cars , and on several brands / models end up replacing lines right from the prop valve or the master right back to the rear wheel cylinders or calipers , and yes I have seen this line turn that green kinda fuzzy corrosion look on the lines . who knows maybe these suppliers don,t sell the best quality or maybe I installed it wrong . things happen ..77.

Fordy Acres Car Farm · DORCHESTER, ONT

I really hope the OP can sift through this and pick out what he truly needs. It would be a shame if people stopped asking questions for fear of these types of responses.

DJD · SCARBOROUGH, ONT

if the line were streached tight between the master cylinder and prop valve I could see years of expansion and contraction being an issue on occasion

if there were a bend at each end , then not so much

but heat . vibration aside the number 1 reason to add the coils to the lines is so you can push / pull the master cylinder out of the way when you need to install a new power brake booster behind it

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Cat in the Hat wrote:
Thank you slim for answering what others

Talk about but couldnt figure out I guess some people can back

Up what they say others just spew to make themselves look

Knowledgable

I never said no coils. What i said was some people add coils for aesthetics

Fat fingers on a cell phone. Small things for small minds

What i meant was some people add multiple coils when

One will do. Adding clamps 18" away also allow flex

Good job slim for clearing this up

Angelo. Good question

Even though some wannabe know it alls have chirped in

I hope you got the answer you were looking for

Cant wait for the next question

WhooooHooo! You almost said I was right...almost.

That was a pretty darn good guess, on the thermal heat expansion eh! For a wannabe/know it all.

Truth be told, and don't think the coils are an engineered criteria, nor did I state it was.

It is likely as Slab mentioned, for the ease of assembly on the line. But it coincidentally helps absorb the expansion/contraction.

Are you trying to tell me, that if I would've given you the actual calculation, you would've stopped your relentless obsession of trying to put me down?

So who be the vultures you talk about.

Do we need to post a bulletin now, and warn all Hot Rodders of possible exploding break lines from heat expansion OMG, because Slim collaborated my statement.

Give it a break, your theatricals, and your constant badgering are getting old.

Maybe try to put your prophesy signature in play. "If you don't share your knowledge, it dies with you", I'm sure learning a whole bunch of BS.

Your superior knowledge is quite impressive, it never ceases to amaze me.

Your obsession with me is so bad, you even need to bring it up on other forums.

And quite frankly, that's just a wee bit concerning to say the least.

But like others have mentioned, thanks for the entertainment.

Or maybe Angelo should just go by the "It'll work just fine" theory, because it would....

Maybe one day I'll learn how to weld tubing, wouldn't that be the cat's ass?.

-- Edited by Gazoo on Wednesday 26th of November 2014 07:51:20 AM

-- Edited by Gazoo on Wednesday 26th of November 2014 08:11:31 AM

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Must be little man inferiority complex......

Keep up the good work Gazoo

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Cat in the Hat wrote:
Must be little man inferiority complex......

Keep up the good work Gazoo

Anytime your highness! Glad to oblige,...quite obvious from the posts here (as well as other threads), who has the inferiority complex.

Thanks for sharing, your wisdom and knowledge! MANY are learning from it....

I'm sure Angelo as learned a lot from your input, thanks for sharing.

-- Edited by Gazoo on Wednesday 26th of November 2014 09:49:34 AM

RacerRick · TORONTO, ONT

slab wrote:
Dick Kirkpatrick wrote:
Not trying to pick sides here, I really am no smarter or dumber than you guys, but the automobile manufacturers ALL coiled their brake lines when they were adjacent to the master cylinder if it was located in the engine bay. The earlier cars with the master cylinders below the floorboards and not in the engine compartment did NOT coil the lines. My theory would be that heat would have to be involved for them to have made this decision. The manufacturers would not do this just for aesthetics and we know they don't like spending money if they don't have to.
I have always made brake lines with the best available steel lines and fittings available, whether just steel or stainless steel and double flared them no matter if they were going to the master or wheel cylinder.

Just sayin.................
Not sure but weren't the masters under the floor boards attached to the frame rather than the body thus eliminating the flexing that would occur with the firewall mounted masters??

All the unibody mopars that had solid mounted K-frames I have had never had the coils either.

I don't think that heat expansion would be much of an issue since the expansion of a line would be incredibly small. I looked at slims calcs and I think he made a mistake. Total thermal expansion in a 100ft stainless pipe over a 100 degree temp swing is 1.09". For 1ft, it would be 0.0109"

If the loops in the lines were for cooling, the engineers designing the car would place them in an airstream as close to the drums are calipers as possible - that is where the greatest heat is, and would benefit the most. Under the hood, next to the exhaust manifold just makes them a heat sink and will absorb more heat than just a straight piece of line.

-- Edited by RacerRick on Wednesday 26th of November 2014 11:49:29 AM

Bob T · BRANTFORD, ONT

WOW..Just like the old days..What a shame. Other than cost , AN fitting are the way to go. Where people get into problems is by not using the proper flaring tool for the 37 degree angle .I've used AN [army/navy] on any race car I've plumbed in the last 20 years. I don't use stainless on street cars unless I have to. Cost and they are hard to work with. I can get the same look by Clear Coating steel lines. As far as coils to the master cyl. they are not needed DEPENDING ON HOW YOU PLUMB THE LINE. There does have to be consideration for flexing. Some like the look of coils but when I see to many coils I think someone is using too long a line and doesn't have the ability to shorten it. As far as heat lengthening a brake line to the point where there would be a problem I've never heard of it and it should be of no concern. My opinion for what it's worth.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Summary:

1) Did I state " But there is also a 3rd reason, and it relates to heat expansion of the tubing, more so for closed hoods and close to exhaust manifold application.
The coil will absorb (cushion) the linear expansion. "?

Answer : Absolutely.

2) Does the tubing expand from the heat?

Answer : YES

3) Did I state this expansion was cause for concern?

Answer : Absolutely not!

Likely most of you got misled by this statement " OMG I forgot the most important reason for coiling

Brake lines...... HEAT EXPANSION OF BRAKE LINES

In the last year i have read about thousands of hotrods

Crashing from lines expanding and blowing brake fluid everywhere!

Crashing and killing and maiming innocent hot rodders

Angelo. Your a smart guy and there have been some good answers from smart

People like Slim and Rick. Others should sit down before they hurt themselves "

Made by a certain flamboyant individual...

In fact, If I were to take an educate guess at the expansion, I would've guessed somewhere in the maybe 1/32" over a 12" length.

But admittedly, I never bothered looking up the coefficient and/or made the calculation.

A couple guys did, which one is correct? I don't know, but .115" does sound excessive, over 12". (Again, I didn't do the calculation).

Both the calculation were made at 100*, (F or C?), I'm assuming F. Average under hood temperatures are around 100*C or 212*F at the center of the hood (this I looked up).

So definitely higher near the exhaust manifold.

4) Does the coil redirect the linear expansion ?

Answer: Of course it does.

5) Did I state that the reason for the coil was to compensate for the expansion ?

Answer : No

Explanation : I did make this statement " It's an engineered safety net, maybe WAYYYY over your head. You know in America where there's temperature from between -40*C and +30*C."

But it was a heated reply pertaining to another out of context comment. And I didn't intend it to sound like the coils were actually put in for that reason.

In fact I did state as much "

Truth be told, and don't think the coils are an engineered criteria, nor did I state it was.

It is likely as Slab mentioned, for the ease of assembly on the line. But it coincidentally helps absorb the expansion/contraction."

6) Amazing how people read into somethings, and get steered in different directions.

What does concern me though, is the fact the a seasoned mechanic makes this statement " Flex lines flex they don't expand."

And yet no one comments on that.

Cheers.

fatchuk · ST MARYS, ONTARIO

You, sir need to go lay down or take a Tylenol..this was done..but you just don't know when to go away and leave alone it do you...just have to keep ratcheting it up ..chit disturber cry

slab · BRANT COUNTY, ONT

Gazoo wrote:

What does concern me though, is the fact the a seasoned mechanic makes this statement " Flex lines flex they don't expand."
And yet no one comments on that.

Cheers.

While researching out my Chevy Truck brake issue, I found the general opinion was that if my flex lines were old, they could be causing my brake problem(or at least adding to it). They said old flex lines would possibly expand due to age not performing as they should, which would be expanding instead of just flexing(or as I took it ...turning with the wheel and road bumps etc). Expanding more like growing like a balloon , giving me a soft pedal. Although I did not make the statement quoted...I thought I understood what he was saying and saw no issue.

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

Hey Gazoo

What does concern me though, is the fact the a seasoned mechanic makes this statement " Flex lines flex they don't expand."

Why does this concern you? That no one else agrees with you?

Did I say something wrong? Or an untruth? I have never known a flex line to expand. I seen them break. I have known them to break down internally an act as a check valve. Stopping fluid one way or the other.

I also asked you to cite the reference to which that the lines are coiled for thermal expansion. I have never seen that reply.

If it's not a concern why would you have brought it up? Just to start an argument?

The coils are there for body flex. If the manufacturers didn't need them they wouldn't be there. Pennies add up on millions of cars.

Gazoo · BADEN, ONT

Chuck , the reason why I put up my last post, was to make sure people don't walk away thinking I made those "distorted" comments.

You know kind of in the same fashion as how my comments got distorted in the "Rat Rods not fit for the road" thread (now deleted), that coincidentally were made by the same individual, who's intentions are becoming rather obvious.

Mike, I didn't bring it up as a concern, I in fact re-iterated as much in my "Summary". The argument (if you wish) started after someone else s remarks, that then made it sound like it was an issue.

Not to start another debate or "argument", but flex lines do expand, how-ever infinitely little it may be...braided flex lines are made to eliminate this greatly.

PS: Hopefully I won't need to put my "Big Boy Pants On" and prove this.

What concerns me is, it seems as if most people were more focused and jumping on the band wagon and throwing their jabs in, and over-looked your statement.

I quite frankly couldn't care less on who agrees with me or not.

Thanks for reading.

-- Edited by Gazoo on Thursday 27th of November 2014 09:10:37 PM

Cat in the Hat · BRANTFORD, ONT

Stir crap

Gotta have the last word.........

The GREAT GAZOO

We expect nothing less. Good job

DJD · SCARBOROUGH, ONT

how is responding to a post that starts by being addressed to one person in particular , haveing the last word ?

Lightspeed Mike · BELLEVILLE, ONT

OK if you want to win this so badly I will agree that flex lines expand, so do steel lines, stainless lines, stainless flex lines, cunifer too. Yes the lines expand in heat also.

Every one of these expansions are so small that they are negligible. If they were a concern the auto makers would build them better.

Like I said before if they were expanding that much you would have a mushy pedal.

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

And................done