emmissions on older cars

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

RE: emmissions on older cars

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Thanks for posting, Seeker!!

While I agree with you that most on here have never had any dealings with the MOE, I on the other hand have been agressively looking into this matter for well over a year now.

I spoke to Rick Lalonde ( if I remember his name correctly) which is the the MOE supervisor which oversees the enforcement officers that patrol our roads (Scarborough office). I posed a lot of the same questions you had, but his answers were different for me. Maybe he's become more educated on the matter in the past year.

I also spoke to one of these officers that patrol our roads, and met face to face with him and his partner for almost an hour trying to get some answers. They were actually pretty cool guys, but they did warn me that one of the other patrolling officers was a bit of a Dick.

There's too many items that needed addressing, but my main focus was crate engines because I want to use one for my next project and didn't want to find out I was non-compliant after I had built the car. Their interpretation of the act is that crate engines are for "off-road" use only !! So my project has sort of been put on hold until I can get clarification.

This contradicts the info you just posted !!

I'm looking forward to the info that will be posted in the upcoming weeks.Hopefully it will shed some light.

SPEEDWRITER · TORONTO, ONT

I agree with seeker 1056 with regards to the numbers of people with personal face to face experiences, ther seem to be far fewer than we have been led to believe.

I continue to encourage everyone to sign John O Tooles petition, from what I have heard they have been getting a large number returned. The legislature returns after labour day so get those sheets to him by the end of August. Just the fact that there are this many people interested will help him. Be sure that anyone who signs provides their address, emil does not matter but the address does. No address and they won't count the signature.

Seeker 1056 I would like to talk with you my number is 416 259 9656 X221 I am in the office weekdays from 8:30 to 3pm

Thanks for your information
Bob McJannett

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

a year ago things were different

as i stated - in the last year there has been a serious attempt by MOE to address things, and the results will be posted in a months time on the interent on the govt MOE website

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Who would have thought that the MOE would be more of a thorn in one's side than those darn By-law officers? Not me !! LOL

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

I have stated my first hand experience, I believe twice already.

Final result was that the officers did not care about the air (the job they are supposed to be doing and care about) but only cared about visually seeing (even junk) components attached to the truck I was driving. Drive clean was produced.

SCcruiser · New Member

Anyone driving to Detroit in August for the Woodward Ave Cruise?

My cruising in the past was always local, Pickering to Oshawa, I've never seen MOT while cruising. Durham Cops have never ever hassled me. That was then .... my car has been parked for about 10 years, and I am putting it on the road in about 2 weeks from now.

I am planning on driving my 73 671-Supercharged Camaro to Detroit for the Woodward Cruise weekend August 17-19 - down the 401 corridor. This forum has now got me paranoid. I am thinking about MOT waiting for us when we come back into Ontario (that is if they don't catch us on the way there). My ride has Shaved Door handles, no pollution control, larger than factory tires, Ladder bar suspension, battery in the trunk, tilt front end, C-Clip eliminators (no parking brake), probably a few other things they could nail me with if they want to. Any comments, other than to tell me to stay home or tow the car down?

workin class · FINCH, ONT

the M.O.T. (Ministry of Transport) has nothing to do with this thread. It The M.O.E. (Ministry of Environment )

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Some Excellent points made in the last couple of days. And A very good explanation of MOE policy. I was NOT with my 3 friends when they were ticketed for emissions infractions, and they were NOT all within the last little while but here some FACTS. Gord from Keswick was ticketed for not having catalytic converters on his 80 Camaro. $365 fine from a Brampton(Peel) police officer in Woodbridge during an evening the police had borrowed officers to crack down on street racing. Gord was stopped at a stop sign after leaving a cruise night at a restaurant near the Walmart on Hwy 7. I did make 6 trips to court with him and we beat the ticket after a Judge pointed out that the police had sent him to Traffic court for an Emission offence. (wrong court) That took 6 trips to court. Reg from Bradford was ticketed by MTO in Bradford parked in Home Hardware parking lot for not having a charcoal canister on a 6 cyl Dodge Dart, operating on a 10 day permit before safety inspection for transfer. He took 1 day off work for court. Crown offered reduced fine if he plead guilty to $365 fine. 1 day's wages plus $133 fine, he paid it and took his lumps. He would have beat it if he fought it but that would have been more lost wages. Jack from Oshawa ticketed Oshawa area, Autumn 2011 for no Catalytic converters on mid 70's Omega. $365 fine. Paid it. Plus another $1000 to have 2 cats installed by some muffler shop. Form your own opinion about the $1000. I saw all 3 of these guys last night. These are ALL Facts! All 3 have signed petition.
I got about 40 more signatures last night. Am picking up more signed forms today. Keep collecting signatures, and remember this is NOT Chicago, you can only vote once.
I trust everyone on this blog has signed the petition. I hope everyone has extended the petition to a friend or family throughout Ontario, especially in the NON Drive Clean areas.
I have heard rumblings of presentations being organized to make the MOE information clear to all.
I still find people that grumble about how stupid the situation is and it should never have happened, and I agree, but, it's here and we need to try to fix it. If presentations are being made we all need to attend. I am sorry I missed the previous one at Perf. Imp. I won't miss the next ones. I would suggest printing a copy of Seeker1056's entry above and keeping it with you. Remember what your mother always said. "You catch more flies with sugar than you do with vinegar". Remember that when you are pulled over. You don't have to kiss someone's posterior, but treat them the way you would like to be treated. This is not a good time to cheap out by going to the $2 Charm School when you should be going to the $5 Charm School!
Encourage ANYONE you know that has been ticketed for Emission infractions to contact Bob McJanett (contact info above) with details. NO URBAN LEGENDS!

the Kid

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

To SCcruiser. I have been going to Woodward Dream Cruise since 1998. Also have been to many Michigan events over the years. I would recommend towing your Camaro because the roads in Michigan are not as good as the roads in Ontario. Including that stretch of the 401 through Toronto. Your Camaro will be happier on the trailer to your hotel, then being driven at WDC. Some sections of highway could break a suspension part at a time when you would rather be cruising than wrenching. By the way, Most of the Motor City's speed shops are gone. Break a part and you will be scrambling to have something UPS'd from out of state.
If you do not have hotel reservations PM me asap. I will give info re the Holiday Inn in Warren that we have stayed at for many years. They treat us well and have been giving us very favourable rates. Big well lit parking lot. Have NOT had a single security problem yet. AND! There is a Tim Horton's in the adjacent parking lot! It just doesn't get any better than that!

the Kid

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

mmm, some lumps here cuz I am just sayin

Gwillyville Kid - so people purposely breaking the law got nailed - my sympathies.

SC Cruiser - if your car wont pass an MTO Safety check it shouldnt be on the road for any reason - never mind that maybe you might need emissions equipment.

Pugsy - it was and is the older trucks late 70s - 80s- 90s runnin around with duals on it with loud mufflers that attract the most attention, and it is a proven fact that 97% of those trucks with duals deleted the cats - thats why the MOE is targetting them around my area for sure.

Guys - its people like yourselves and the ones pointed out by the Kid who cause the rest of us this grief we are facing!

Rumour also has it that both the insurance companies, and the MTO, are going to start asking for yearly safty checks on hotrods too, precisely because many hotrods dont meet any safety standards for things like emergency brakes, windshield washers, 4 ways, seat belts, marginal braking systems adapted to too large a car etc etc etc etc

Did you know that if you have an accident and your car wont meet safety standards - you have no insurance cuz it is an out for the insurance company. AND you can be sued for millions if you hurt someone.

OldGuy 71Acadian · ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
There's some real pieces of crap running around.Some guys should NOT be wrenching on their own cars !!

Hemi, you have no idea how true your statement is.

The rules on removing emmission equipment on vehicles, has long been on the books and everyone knows it. If you're finally getting a ticket for it, then I guess you did good for a long time. The big questions here are, the mixing and matching of engine and vehicle rules, along with after market products that were not supplied by the OEM's. eg. crate engines.

A few posts back, Seeker1056 mentioned about them only using Canadian info. Yet the SVAO states otherwise. Also, as I've stated numerous times in this thread, WHY!!! is there no access to the MOE's secret information??? The MOE's biggest problem, is that, after over 200 years of automobile use, they decided to make up some rules, but, have zero data over all those past years. confuse

On a side note, these enforcement officers don't make the rules. Neither do police officers, parking enforcement officers or border officers. Although some can be jerks, so can your neighbours, family, friends and co-workers. bleh

Keep the petitions going, write your MP's, MPP's and local officials. biggrin

-- Edited by OldGuy 71Acadian on Sunday 15th of July 2012 08:32:41 AM

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Seeker 1056 I agree with most of what you have said other than [ RUMOR ] Here we go again mor fuc--- PROPAGANDA. Just what are you trying to start anyway??? You know a friend of a frigin friend of a friend. Either you back it up or please keep quiet there is enough shat that has been started on this site already.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Modfather wrote:
Seeker 1056 I agree with most of what you have said other than [ RUMOR ] Here we go again mor fuc--- PROPAGANDA. Just what are you trying to start anyway??? You know a friend of a frigin friend of a friend. Either you back it up or please keep quiet there is enough shat that has been started on this site already.

I for one actually appreciate what Seeker is saying !! I feel he's the only poster here that may be able to get inside information that we can't, and puts it in writing in a sensible matter (unlike me )

As far as yearly safetys, that's news to me, but I wouldn't be surprized. They already do it to pick-ups with a GVWR over 4500kg (duallies)so I guess the next target would be modified cars. I would hate to see it, But, there's some real pieces of crap running around.Some guys should NOT be wrenching on their own cars !!

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Please don't take my post as gospel, but I have looked into this. The information below I got from the Gov website, and I've also spoken to MTO (inperson) about this subject.

One of each is hang a hammock and secure a portable toilet on the trailer. Then you do NOT require the stickers.
I'm sorry but that is false !! Just because a trailer has sleeping facilities and a place to take a dump does not make it an RV if that trailer is capable of carrying cargo.

Here's what I know about the yellow sticker fiasco. Again, this is something I've looked into for the past year.

-If you have a vehicle with a GVWR of more than 4500 kg- you need a yellow sticker
-If you tow a trailer( that is not clasified as an RV), and the combined GVWR of the trailer plus the tow vehicle is over 4500kg-you need a yellow sticker
-If your vehicle does have a yellow sticker, then the towed trailer must also have a yellow sticker even if the combined GVWR is less than 4500kg
-If the trailer has a yellow sticker, then the vehicle towing that trailer must also have a yellow sticker even if the combined GVWR is less than 4500 kg
-Homebuilt trailers do not have a GVWR, therefore the MTO will could send you to a scale and go by actual weight

-A house trailer is an RV, therefore you don't need a yellow sticker.
-A house trailer with an area to carry vehicles commonly known as "toy haulers" do need yellow stickers.
-A dually with a GVWR over 4500kg with a slide-in camper does not need a yellow sticker. Remove the camper and now you do need the yellow sticker.
-If you take a camping trailer and modify it to be able to carry cargo, it now becomes a trailer and will lose it's RV status.
-A school bus does not need a yellow sticker. Cut a door opening in the back to carry your race car, now it becomes a truck and you will need a yellow sticker.

This like the emission law is open to interpretation.

IMHO, If we're going to start talking about trailer laws, let's start a new thread so that we don't mix it in with the emission discussion going on.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Saturday 14th of July 2012 09:27:46 PM

-- Edited by hemi43 on Saturday 14th of July 2012 09:39:46 PM

-- Edited by hemi43 on Saturday 14th of July 2012 09:46:19 PM

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

I agree that many people should NOT be working on ANYONE's car. People out of and IN the Automobile Repair Trade. I am a Licensed Motor Vehicle Mechanic.
Let's use this EXAMPLE.
When do you REQUIRE a yellow sticker on your truck and trailer? On the Minimum end of the standard, not the obvious 5 ton boom truck, etc. I am talking about pickups and light trailers.
Tell me what you "know". Now without letting the cat out of the bag, I contacted the MTO seeking this info. The answer was vague and non-committal. (sound familiar?) Vague enough that it would be smarter error on the side of caution and incur the expense of the annual inspections than it was to risk the roadside inspections and fines if "my interpretation" was incorrect. My enquiry was for towing my son's drag car(an Altered T bucket) on his trailer with his truck. I was asked if the car had "advertising" on it, or did the trailer? the Truck? No.No & NO. The trio weighed in at under 10,000 lbs. So tell me what you "KNOW".
This an exercise to illustrate what is going on with the Emissions laws and interpretations. There will be many opinions as to what SHOULD be. There might be the correct answer. but there will be as many interpretations as there will be respondents. So whether all of this is a "CASH GRAB" which the math does not support, or a power struggle, I personally vote for, or an undertaking to buy votes, which I also believe. One thing is for sure the legislations in Canada are intended to be misunderstood by the average Canadian. Many MP's and MPP's are lawyers and own or are in cahoots with lawyers. So we can pay to take the safe, and often unnecessary, route or we can pay the fines and lawyers because we tried to interpret it ourselves but we did not pay the annual Canadian Bar Assoc. fee or study in the good old boys club for 7-10 years.
There are 2 answers for my question. There are 4 solutions. One of each is hang a hammock and secure a portable toilet on the trailer. Then you do NOT require the stickers.
What are the rest. By the way, the most correct answer will get you pulled over every time the Police or MTO drive past you.
Funny, the most correct answer for the emissions thing will get you pulled over as often too.

ps. 1 of the 3 guys ticketed was legal but ticketed anyhow 6 trips to court, 2 of 3 were purchased running and had no knowledge of the emissions requirements. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but why are we talking about this?
We need more petition signatures.

the Kid

30AV8 · BURLINGTON, ONT

Having to pay $100 for information on what is required to be on an engine is a joke. The MTO has a gov't web site that is like 100 pages long and outlines everything and its free public usage. What's the big secret, let me guess, MOE money.

My theory on why it was mentioned earlier that we aren't seeing/hearing incidents is because we are spreading the good word at shows and cruises about this law, and people are taking cover until it is settled. I know for myself I drive about once a week now, and as mentioned above keep sending the petitions in.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Ever had a close look at some of the "RAT RODS" at local cruise in's & shows??? Some of the work is excellant, & others "just plain unsafe"!!! Unfortunatly the majority falls into the 2nd. catagorie. Coat hanger throttle linkage, key ring to hold brake linkage together, more holes than "swiss cheese" in firewall & floors. I've seen drag links attch. to steering arm but no cotter pin installed & some frt. axles instalations that are down right SCARY Some of these "vehicles" should never have been put on the road & obviously didn't see a "PROPER"inspection, then the owner had a "mental" lapse & put Historic Plates on his "unfit" Rat Rod. Yes I can see yearly insp. coming,most other Prov. have it now & most states have had it along time. It's not just the old cars though,look how many get the plates removed on a holiday wknd.by the OPP on their safety BLITZ's I've had my 64 catalina since 2001[thats 11yrs]& it had it's inspection back then & nothing since, so I really don't see a problem here!!!

OldGuy 71Acadian · ONTARIO

Well Kid, If you are a Licensed Mechanic, let me ask and answer a question for you. At any point in your apprenticeship or career, did you go to school or take any type of course specifically on vehicle inspections? Answer is NO! The MTO has left this up to you to interpet and find out about. The Moe inspectors and MTO inspectors are no different. I had an MTO inspector tell me, that "J" mechanics (Trailer Mechanic) couldn't sign annuals. I said, if that's the case, then alot of garages have been breaking the law. He checked it out and found out that he was wrong. Bottom line is that they make mistakes and don't know all the rules. By the way, start brushing up on the National Safety interpretations, as 611 is on it's way out. biggrin biggrin biggrin

Hemi's explanation on Annual "Yellow" Stickers is correct. It goes stricktly by GVWR. Advertising has no bearing whatsoever. The boating community seems to be the latest group to be hit. I've had a few calls lately from concerned boaters, as well as, landscapers and race/show car haulers.

Pete, the scariest part, is the guy who just bought a welder and practised on welding the brackets that hold his front end in. cry confuse

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Hemi43 I'm impressed. You win and quickly too. The idea was not to start a new thread about trailers and yellow stickers, but to illustrate why we need to be successful with this petition. It's convoluted. The information is all out there but everyone has a different interpretation and of course different stories. I have been aware of the scope of this law and the Canadian Environmental Protection Act since the early 70's, with the cans and can'ts of tampering with emission control devices. My family has been in the auto service garage business since the mid 50's, until I sold my garage in the 1990's. During that time many people ignored the emission control stuff, some just don't keep up to date with the laws, etc in Canada that affect their lives. Combine this a political system that spends minimal $$$ to keep Canadians up to date with the changes they have made and now you have exactly where we are with this emission stuff on vintage cars. The laws were there, the surprise is people that had not paid attention getting ticketed for failing to comply. It has not helped that both Federally and Provincially the enforcement of these laws have been occasional and it seems with an attitude or personal vendetta. Some areas have seen more enforcement over the years (Woodbridge), but this seemed to be for greater punishment as police tried to stop "Street racing". Not this sweeping through traffic at 50km over speed limit stuff, that used to be "Dangerous Driving", but the good old Street Drags. I still don't understand how 1 person can "Street Race". Takes 2 to race.
Back to the emission stuff. Laws have been in place since about 1971. They are still enforced inconsistently. This is why we need to be successful with the petition. It needs to be clear and consistent in application.
My lawyer friend says "The person that knows the law best gets the best out of the Law.
Get Going.

ps we traded drag car for a street rod and have not got any yellow tag tickets.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

I see pros and cons to yearly inspections.

The good part is that it may get rid or fix the junk that is currently on our roads, but usually these guys that build the rat rods have some way of getting a bogus safety so the same junk will still be running around.

The bad part about it, is that those of us that maintain our car perfectly will get caught up in another expensive, time consuming fiasco that our cars don't need. I have 4 cars, which means 4 days a year are now basically messed up by having to take the cars in for certification. I'm on a fixed income, so it means that it will be another $200/ year out of my wallet.

If they're eventually going to do this, I feel that an inspection every 2 years will be more than sufficient.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Gwillyville Kid wrote:
Hemi43 I'm impressed. You win and quickly too. The idea was not to start a new thread about trailers and yellow stickers, but to illustrate why we need to be successful with this petition. It's convoluted. The information is all out there but everyone has a different interpretation and of course different stories. I have been aware of the scope of this law and the Canadian Environmental Protection Act since the early 70's, with the cans and can'ts of tampering with emission control devices. My family has been in the auto service garage business since the mid 50's, until I sold my garage in the 1990's. During that time many people ignored the emission control stuff, some just don't keep up to date with the laws, etc in Canada that affect their lives. Combine this a political system that spends minimal $$$ to keep Canadians up to date with the changes they have made and now you have exactly where we are with this emission stuff on vintage cars. The laws were there, the surprise is people that had not paid attention getting ticketed for failing to comply. It has not helped that both Federally and Provincially the enforcement of these laws have been occasional and it seems with an attitude or personal vendetta. Some areas have seen more enforcement over the years (Woodbridge), but this seemed to be for greater punishment as police tried to stop "Street racing". Not this sweeping through traffic at 50km over speed limit stuff, that used to be "Dangerous Driving", but the good old Street Drags. I still don't understand how 1 person can "Street Race". Takes 2 to race.
Back to the emission stuff. Laws have been in place since about 1971. They are still enforced inconsistently. This is why we need to be successful with the petition. It needs to be clear and consistent in application.
My lawyer friend says "The person that knows the law best gets the best out of the Law.
Get Going.

ps we traded drag car for a street rod and have not got any yellow tag tickets.

WooHooooo!! What did I win ?

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

You guys worried about this emissions stuff may have another way of fighting this.I just read about a guy who had his DUI charges throwen out of court.The article is in the Toronto Star ,July 13,GTA section.It states that even though he blew 181 and 177 he was stopped because the OPP had a hunch he was impared.The reason it was tossed was because the judge said "motorests have a reasonable expectation that there libertie will not be interfered with lightley"and a hunch is not constitunal.Any one have there liberty interfered with on a hunch by anyone lately. ED

hemi43 · ONTARIO

One last question about the trailer laws that I have not been able to get an answer to. Maybe someone here knows !!
If you're towing a trailer, and the MTO pulls you over, which GVWR do they use to determine if you need a yellow sticker or not?Do they use the manufacturer's GVWR (the tag on the driver's door)? Or do they use the GVWR that is listed on your ownership? Most personal use pick-up trucks will have the GVWR on the ownership listed at 3000kg, even though the actual GVWR listed on the door is much higher.
If we really got down and figured out the laws as they are written, we would be shocked !!
My full size pick-up has a GVWR of 3000kg on the ownership,and my truck's actual weight is about 2600kg. The way I see it, I can only carry 400kg max without being overweight. So legally, if I have 4 fat guys in the truck, the 4 cases of beer in the box will put us over the 3000kg.

Gearhead · ELORA, ONT

wow - good to know about all of this stuff. I'm not sweating the fact I've got a 95 block in my '87. Its going to be cleaner running, and way more powerful than any '87 TBI ever was. I like the fact I'm doing the right thing AND getting much better fuel economy to boot. I'll be laughing at a spot check

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

So you get some people involved in politics and it goes to there heads.You started of by being concerned about emisions laws and now you have moved on to almost advocating yearly safety checks on modified vehicles.I guess the next step will be to set minimum standerds on acceptable admissions to cruse nights and car shows.Please just go back to your MOE thing before you get everybody taken off the road.Maybe you could suggest vehicles need modern safety standards as well seatbelts,7airbags,video cameras,parking assist,why not maybe crash tests for home builds.As for guys not wrenching on there own cars there are already places where it is illeagle to work on your car in your driveway.I really don't want to get into any kind of war of words here and I know you are serious about your fight with the gov but this is now straying from the origional intention and if people start to think you guys are ok with or promoting yearly inspections you might loose a few supporters.I hope you understand I support you on the MOE thing its the rest that bothers me,it is none of my business how a guy builds his car as long as he enjoys it ,that is all that matters. Ed

Sniper · WATFORD, ONT

Where is a link or page of the actual petition that can be printed off and signed? The sticky of MPP Clark at the top doesn't have it, it's not in the "news" section where it says to look. There is a copy within one of the posts by Oldkoot, but it won't print out properly.

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

It's on the Performance Improvements site in PDF form.

Sniper · WATFORD, ONT

oldkoot wrote:
It's on the Performance Improvements site in PDF form.

Got it. Printed off 5 copies and saved the PDF if needed. I would suggest the PI link be included in the sticky. Would make it a lot easier to obtain. Thanks Oldkoot for the hand.

oldkoot · BROCKVILLE, ONT

It's also back up on Steve Clarks site, appears it had timed out and was removed.

Sniper · WATFORD, ONT

Just got back from a local cruise night in Strathroy ON. Took 5 petition sheets and had them filled in, in a very short time. I didn't expect the response I received, it was much stronger than I had anticipated. Ran out of space after 25 names, and only about a 1/3 of the people there were approched. Cool thing was, I was invited back next week to catch the larger majority I didn't get to see this time around. Also was told of a couple of other events that will likely get a large number of signatures as well. It's kind of funny in a way, people will sign the petition no problem, they just don't want to be the one to the leg work.

Did find one gentleman that said he had been stopped on Dundas St. in London and charged with not having a proper working PVC. He took it to court, and was approached by the prosecutor before his time in front of the judge. He was 'offered' a reduced fine if he plead guilty, ($100.) plus $25. court fees and that would be it. He did make changes to the PVC before the court date so it would comply, but no one checked on it, or made any tests of any sort. I could draw a lot of conclusions from all this, but it would be mere speculation on my part.

Only had one refusal, the gentleman wasn't interested because he doesn't have a vehicle involved, but his wife made sure I understood her brother works for the MOE....you can draw your own conclusions from that incident as well.

Most people know of something on the topic and are aware something is up. The ones that read the recent Old Auto's article were the most informed. Only a few knew nothing about the situation, but were interested enough to listen.

So if you have a bit of spare time and like to meet people, this is a good way to do it. Take care.

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

I just found this site last night and read this thread with great interest, all 10 pages up to this point. I have been actively seeking signatures for Mr. O'Tooles petition since the day it came out. So far i have handed in 46 pages with more coming as soon as i can get them. I wish i could turn this into a full time job this summer but i am limited as i do have to work full time to support my vehicle habits.

I find it surprising when i go to car shows or cruise nights just how many people don't know about the petition or the reason for it. I have thought about contacting one of the major newspapers in Toronto about the problem that has stricken the older vehicle owners for the last few summers but after thinking about it for awhile i decided not to. Reason being the tree huggers out there would read about it and it would most likely work against us. Some how we need to get word spread by other means that just the internet, as stated in a previous post there are alot of people who are not online.

We really need to get the charities we support to get on board with our fight. We buy 50/50 tickets which usually support such outfits as Big Brothers/Sisters, a Church group, Hospitals, Childrens groups, Lion's Clubs etc. These charities are gonna be feeling the pinch for lack of donations from old car owners i'm sure this year. I had been an active participant at the Bridgenorth Cruise night for the past 3 summers but have not attended this year mostly due to weather and other things going on. I know the Lion's club out there makes a great deal of revenue from the 50/50 draws as outlined at the end of the season when the cheques are presented. I have heard the 'stories' about the MOE being out there this year doing their job when people are either leaving or going to the cruise. First time i heard that my heart sank, knowing how many people in that area benefit from that cruise night and the $$ they pull in every week. So sad.

I can provide a fact for this thread, fact is that the MOE inspectors do go to cruise nights. I have seen one of them that i know of and he has looked at my vehicle whilst it was on display in a parking lot with the hood open for all to see. He wasn't on duty at the time, he was in street clothes, he looked at my engine and walked around the back of the vehicle then walked away. I watched him as he walked over to another row of vehicles and out came his phone and he started typing. So i'm sure i'm now on the 'look for' list if there is such a thing in their department. Nice eh?

I recall reading in this thread someone wondering if anyone from the MOE reads any of this. You can bet they likely are! They are human afterall and we all love to read right? I'm sure by now they know full well how alot of old vehicle owners are feeling and i'm sure they love to read about our woes. Remember some of them will own old vehicles of some sort too and they will know all about what is going on. How do you think they know about where the cruise nights and car shows are?

It's gonna be an interesting time, thats for sure. I wish all the best of luck in this battle, a battle which i hope we can win. We do live in a democratic society, right??

will · WALKERTON, ONT

Following is a copy of a email letter I received after asking some questions about our on going issues with MOE.
Most of us who are collecting petition signatures can relate to the comments from Sniper after his visit to the Strathroy cruise nite and the comments from Jeep4752 about the support of local charities. We car owner guys can only do so much at our local level, but believe me telling the story and collection of petition signatures is huge. We are not doing this alone as you can read in Arlene's letter.
ALL ONTARIO AUTOMOTIVE-RELATED GROUPS ARE WORKING TOGETHER TO KEEP OUR UNIQUE VEHICLES LICENSED AND ON THE ROAD.
Please sign the petition and contact your local MPP and ask him to support the vote for change when this comes up in the Ontario legislature.

John

Hi John,

CSRHOF stands for the Canadian Street Rodding Hall Of Fame.
Our President Jim Cowan and Treasurer, Andy Soutar were at the
Meeting on May 16th, 2012 at Performance Improvements. (See article in Old Autos P.29A dated Monday July 16, 2012.) The CEO of P.I. is Bob McJannett who is a former Director of the CSRHOF and a current Executive member of SEMA; he is collecting and sorting the data for "Car Clubs for Charity" for presentation to the Ontario Legislature. All Ontario automotive-related groups are working together to keep our unique vehicles licensed and on the road.

I trust this answers your question.

Thanks for writing to your MPP about Ontario Regulation 361/98.

Sincerely,

Arlene Baillie,

Administrative Assistant, CSRHOF

hemi43 · ONTARIO

I actually spoke to Andy Soutar last year when I first heard about the MOE clamping down on older cars. I spoke to him for almost 2 hours on the phone, and he is a very, very knowlegible person. If I recall, he was an MTO officer, but is now retired. Nice to have him on our side now !!

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Torquewar wrote:
My blood is boiling over this,and the above post says it all. Has the petition made it around the London shows ,have not seen it because it would be signed buy many.

Think about this for a minute !! He got pulled over in a vehicle that has emission controls. Some of the emission controls were not there or were not in working order. What is there to argue?

If he got pulled over because he was driving the car in his avatar, then my blood would be boiling too !!

People!!!!! If you have a vehicle that had emission controls, make sure they are still there !!

If the officers were rude (which is NOT acceptable) put in a complaint.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Friday 27th of July 2012 08:53:27 AM

70 chevelle · COBOURG, ONT

im not trying to start any crap or fights in the forum but to SEEKER its not hear say ive been stopped 3 times by the m.o.e. and been harassed by them the first time i was stopped was because the truck i was driving was stopped before when the previous owner owned it and they thought it was him again. they didnt believe me that i bought it from him and that it was all legit except for the seized air pump which i told him about and that i was on my way to get it fixed. he let me off with a warning and he gave me his card and told me to fax him my info when i got the truck fixed which i did. while i was talking to the one officer the other was putting my info into the computer for future referance. my second run in with the m.o.e. they followed me into my place of work and started harassing me about my car. the one guy was really snotty about things asking if im the owner if its insured which i answred yes to both because it was the other guy got out of the suv they were driving and told the first guy the year of my car what my name was and then started looking under my hood and looking for a (cat). to there surprise everything is on my car it is all original nothing changed. they got mad and made the comment that theres no chrome on this one guess hes saved his money for gas (not real professional) if you ask me. the thrid time i got harassed by the m.o.e. i was on my way to work they were driving down the street southbound and i was on another street coming west bound he spotted by truck half a block away turned around and chased me down. he got out of his truck and i noticed it was one of the same cowboys that pulled me over the 2nd time (snotty again) and he asked me for my licence ownership and insurance and to step out of my truck and then asked me if i had ever been pulled over by the m.o.e. before so i said to him if youd look on your computer it will tell you that i have and what happened over it. he then got even more snotty with me and asked to see under the hood. so up it went and i told him about the first time and what had happened and i did fix it but since it had sat for 6 months the pump i put on seized from sitting but i had another one in the back of my truck i just got it on the weekend and hadnt put it on yet. he got mad at what i told him and said thats no excuse it should be on there and working. wont lie he was starting to get under my skin with his b.s. attitude. he then told me that he pulled me over because it is an old truck but he give me a warning and said the next time i see this truck im going to be stopping it and if its not fixed you will be getting a fine. he then handed me my stuff back and told me again to get it fixed and he'll be watching for me. again (not to professional) if you ask me. i get it that thats his job and he's just doing it but if he had have looked in his computer before puling me over he would have known everything he wanted to know about the truck.

Torquewar · DORCHESTER, ONT

My blood is boiling over this,and the above post says it all. Has the petition made it around the London shows ,have not seen it because it would be signed buy many.

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

70 Chevelle

all I can say is that if any govt employee is acting in any way shape or form in the manner you have described, all you need do is make a written complaint to both your MPP and to his boss.

He is required by law to give you his badge number, his office location etc, upon your request, and the first name of his boss, at the scene.

If he refuses - get the car number, and the licence number of the car he is in.

That will put and end to his behaviour, if not to his job.

No govt employee is allowed to act in the manner you described. PERIOD!

Borrow or buy a cheap voice recorder, keep it with you. If you are indeed being harrassed, then when you get stopped again - tell the officer he is being recorded and said recording can and will be used when he and his office are in court for harrassment.

By the same token - be absolutely sure of your own attitude when dealing with these people.

Bob T · BRANTFORD, ONT

"Seeker"You absolutly correct especialy about the tape recorder. I don't travel without mine.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Bob T wrote:
"Seeker"You absolutly correct especialy about the tape recorder. I don't travel without mine.

I carry a GoPro camera with a magnetic base that attaches to my dash. I'm sure the judge will appreciate the video in HD.

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

actually, i nthinking on this, just about every new cell phone today can capture quite a bit of voice/video and who doesnt have a cell phone these days?

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

I have an ancient cell phone so no video available to me that way. What I do have is a $40 (shipping included directly from Hong Kong to my door ... no kidding) eBay dash camera that I have installed in my old car. If/when I get pulled over I will be polite but only to a point ... if I get attitude from them they can expect some back from me. I will also be video recording (with sound) the entire event (after having informed them of my intention to video record our interaction).

Seeker1056 · DOURO, ONT

yes - you must inform them that you intend to voice or video record - otherwise its illegal and you would be in a world of hurt if you get caught out

;o)

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

I just got stopped by MOE tonight. When I asked if he was targeting cars going to the cruise night, his reply was no, that they were just going down the road from where they stopped me to have dinner. I pushed him and his partner on it and they got quite pissed because I didn't buy there BS story. I checked the distance from the cruise to where I was stopped when I left the cruise. Exactly 1/10 of a mile. This was in Ajax close to Shake Rabble and Roll restaurant.

No tickets as my 76 pickup has cats, egr, vac can, pcv, etc.
I mentioned about how I have a nice Edelbrock intake for the hot rod I'm building w/o egr and he says, "can't you just add one somehow?" I says no, and mention that I will run an LS1 ecm and have a clean burning motor that I'm sure will pass drive clean. I could tell he didn't care if it would, but only cared that they would see one attached to the motor.

I may still rig up a tube from the exhaust header to an egr to the intake somehow if this doesn't get straightened out in the next five years as that's about when I'll be getting the engine in operation.

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

These MOE guys are working Saturday evenings of long weekends? Wow.

1/10 of a mile would/should put you on Highway 2 ... pretty obvious they were targeting show goers (I live in Ajax but stayed home last night ... too hot out for me). Wonder if I'll hear any more stories regarding last night from the locals.

If I am right, this is the third time you have been pulled over in that truck. First time you got ticketed for cats, second time (same officer) you got warned about EGR, and now this time you passed due to the apparent installation of an EGR valve. I have heard (just a rumour) that once a vehicle has been pulled over and found to be compliant, it is listed in their computer as being compliant and they won't bother you again. Hopefully this will be your last interaction with the MOE for a while.

-- Edited by Rusty Nuts on Sunday 5th of August 2012 09:55:54 AM

OldGuy 71Acadian · ONTARIO

Rusty Nuts wrote:
These MOE guys are working Saturday evenings of long weekends? Wow.... pretty obvious they were targeting show goers.

Well Rusty, that's a good observation. So now I have to wonder, what the stats are, as to the day and time that people are being pulled over. If the stats show, mostly weekends, then hobbiest targeting is obvious. So, anyone on here who has been stopped, please post up the time and day that you were inspected.

flatblack55delivery · PORT HOPE, ONT

I drive my 55 every day to an from work .I use it as a kinda add for my vintage appliance business even though it isn't lettered.The environment guys quite ofton sit in the parking lot accross the road and I have seen them wate and then go after what to me seams to be there targets around here,trucks late 70s to 90s. These guys go after the trucks.My son was stopped doing a delivery for me when he left the lot,about a month ago, in his 93s10.He said he saw them accross the road and figured they would come after him ,and he was correct. They stopped him and politely asked to open the hood he did they looked around and said the reason he was stopped was a noisie exhaust.Due to the fact the problem,(a seperated pipe that should have been fixed), with he exhaust was past the cat there would be no ticket but they asked that he fix it so he wouldn't be stopped again.This is the 3rd time he has been stopped 2 in his 85s10 with stacks,the reason they stopped him,and this one .Fortunately no tickets and no attitude on either side .As you asked the times for these stops were normal business hours during the week.Hope this helps . Ed

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

This was the first stop in this truck. 1976 Chevy.

I was stopped about six years ago in a different 1979 Chevy pickup.

The guy did mention last night that they would put me in the system so I needn't be bothered again. But after the hard time I gave them about targeting us, I got a feeling its not over....
He'll probably stop me cause he knows my valve cover breather is not being fed to the intake air breather assembly. Maybe I'll hook that up so when he pulls me over I can start screaming harassment at the top of my lungs! Gotta love playing with these guys.

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

An MOE inspector i spoke with told me that there is no taking a vehicle out of their system after it has been checked/passed. This is a myth that after a vehicle gets stopped once that it is/can be taken out of their system. They can pull it over again if they so choose at anytime.

The MOE inspectors do have the books with them to check engine number on the spot. I was told this by the same inspector.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Well that contradicts what I was told in my meeting with them. They said that once you were stopped,and all was well, your plate was entered in their system and would be in there for 2 years.