About the Ministry

DaveM · ONTARIO

RE: emmissions on older cars

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

As with alot of you, i am not very happy with this enforcement that seems to be heightened lately.
But one thing that really peeves me off when i read peoples replies on here about their interaction with an inspector on the side of the road or wherever, that they are being ignorant to these inspectors. I ask these people this- do you really think that being ignorant to them is gonna help your cause? Do you think that being ignorant to them is gonna help any of our causes in this battle? Ok i'm beyond peeved, i'm pi**ed that this is going on. Theres no need for it, the inspectors are only doing what their job requires them to do, emissions enforcement. How about trying to be nice to them for a change, not an arrogant nice but realistic and level headed. If people keep being jerks towards them guess what, their gonna look even harder and you can bet that one day if you only have 'junk' parts bolted on the engine to make it look good for them, they're gonna start wanting real working parts on there instead. I am not trying to centre anyone out here with my rant, but come on, grow up already people, this heightened enforcement has been going on for the last 3 summers now that i have heard of around the Oshawa area, so get over it, it's here and likely won't go away anytime soon either.

BARRIE, ONTARIO

A different twist on the date of engine swap question . It was mentioned to me by a local older rodder that has a 65 - maybe 66 Chebby truck . Originally a six banger . I believe he has owned the truck since 72 or 74 era . In 86 his son wrote off their 84 Chev truck with 350 an 4 spd auto trans . That motor was installed in fall / winter of 86 . And been in there ever since .
He mentioned to me he had heard of the moe cracking down an told me he,s had the truck off the road for two yrs for some maintenance , interior work , during which he pulled the motor an trans an detailed the whole under hood area .
His question is , how does he eggsplain , that the motor trans under hood look brand new but , drive train was swapped into place in 86 ???
The only thing I could say was start driving thru every puddle you see . ..77.

car · New Member

My husband is about to buy a car and the engine is a different make than the car model. It's a hot rod car with a corvet engine. Someone said they are making changes regarding this type of thing and it could be difficult to register/certify. We don't want to get stuck paying a lot of money if we are going to have problems. Thanks for any input.

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

Car ... your question brings up a lot more questions than just emission controls (which this specific post is about). You would be better to start a new post of your own regarding the issues you want answered. A lot more information from you would also help, such as the year of car he intends to buy, year of engine, year engine was installed in car, does it have fenders, bumpers, wipers, was it ever licenced/insured in Ontario, is this a new build or someone elses unfinished project, is the body fiberglass, etc etc.

It is very wise to research this stuff before you hand over the cash. Keep in mind, just because you may have seen
someone else driving something similar does not mean they have titled it, licenced it and insured it legally.

PS. Welcome to the site :)

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

Jeep4752 wrote:
As with alot of you, i am not very happy with this enforcement that seems to be heightened lately.
But one thing that really peeves me off when i read peoples replies on here about their interaction with an inspector on the side of the road or wherever, that they are being ignorant to these inspectors. I ask these people this- do you really think that being ignorant to them is gonna help your cause? Do you think that being ignorant to them is gonna help any of our causes in this battle? Ok i'm beyond peeved, i'm pi**ed that this is going on. Theres no need for it, the inspectors are only doing what their job requires them to do, emissions enforcement. How about trying to be nice to them for a change, not an arrogant nice but realistic and level headed. If people keep being jerks towards them guess what, their gonna look even harder and you can bet that one day if you only have 'junk' parts bolted on the engine to make it look good for them, they're gonna start wanting real working parts on there instead. I am not trying to centre anyone out here with my rant, but come on, grow up already people, this heightened enforcement has been going on for the last 3 summers now that i have heard of around the Oshawa area, so get over it, it's here and likely won't go away anytime soon either.

No names required. I know who I am.

If someone lies to my face they will get everything I got.

When someone lies to you, the translation is basically this: "You're a freaking stupid schmuck and I know you will believe this line of bull I'm telling you."

"We were just going for dinner over there" translates to what I wrote above.

If they told me they were sent out to target the cruise night cars by their superiors, I may have shown them some respect.

Sorry, I will not kiss their A$$ until they come clean right off the bat when I ask them why they pulled me over.

car · New Member

Thanks, I'm not sure all the details about the car but my husband secured the deposit with $1000 but now he's leaning to not buying it because he heard the govt is making changes where it might be hard to certify a car where an engine isn't the same as the model. They guy is saying he won't give him the deposit back.... Is this allowed? There wasn't anything written down.

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

I'm not saying kiss their a**es and i am sure as hell not gonna turn this into an online battle with anyone either. I have countless thousands of dollars tied up in my vehicle and i'm mad as hell that i feel i no longer have yet another freedom in this so called democratic society to drive my old vehicle whenever i want without the fear of being hassled on the side of the road somewhere. These guys are doing their jobs and unfortunately we have to roll with the punches whether we want to or not. It's called the law and we have to do what the law tells us to do. I just do not see the need to go off side with someone, where does it get you??

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

"I have countless thousands of dollars tied up in my vehicle and i'm mad as hell that i feel i no longer have yet another freedom in this so called democratic society to drive my old vehicle whenever i want without the fear of being hassled on the side of the road somewhere."

Make it legal and you won't have to worry.

"It's called the law and we have to do what the law tells us to do. I just do not see the need to go off side with someone, where does it get you?"

I'll tell you where it got me once ... out of a ticket (not an emission ticket). Years ago I got really mouthy when a cop tried to write me a ticket. He flat out lied to me, I caught his lie and called him on it. End result ... no ticket. He knew he lied, he knew I knew he lied and he knew he wouldn't stand a chance in court. Off a ticket, that's where it got me.

I have heard that one of the MOE dudes is a real prick. If he gives ANYONE attitude he should expect it back. We have rights. If you know them, let them know too. LOUDLY if needed.

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

car wrote:
Thanks, I'm not sure all the details about the car but my husband secured the deposit with $1000 but now he's leaning to not buying it because he heard the govt is making changes where it might be hard to certify a car where an engine isn't the same as the model. They guy is saying he won't give him the deposit back.... Is this allowed? There wasn't anything written down.

Haven't heard anything about an engine change making a car uncertifiable. Certification has to do with safety features of a car. An engine makes it move whether its quickly or not should not affect the certification.

As for the deposit, if you leave someone a deposit and don't buy the vehicle, you've lost your money. A buddy of mine collected 3500 dollars from a guy over a year and finally the guy admitted he couldn't come up with the money to buy the car. He never asked for it back.

Anyways, you should start a new thread about this as its a little off the emissions topic. Certifying a car and emissions are not related.

123pugsy · MARKHAM, ONT

Rusty Nuts wrote:
"I have countless thousands of dollars tied up in my vehicle and i'm mad as hell that i feel i no longer have yet another freedom in this so called democratic society to drive my old vehicle whenever i want without the fear of being hassled on the side of the road somewhere."

Make it legal and you won't have to worry.

"It's called the law and we have to do what the law tells us to do. I just do not see the need to go off side with someone, where does it get you?"

I'll tell you where it got me once ... out of a ticket (not an emission ticket). Years ago I got really mouthy when a cop tried to write me a ticket. He flat out lied to me, I caught his lie and called him on it. End result ... no ticket. He knew he lied, he knew I knew he lied and he knew he wouldn't stand a chance in court. Off a ticket, that's where it got me.

I have heard that one of the MOE dudes is a real prick. If he gives ANYONE attitude he should expect it back. We have rights. If you know them, let them know too. LOUDLY if needed.

Thanks Rusty Nuts.

That sums it up nicely.

69SS454 · MILTON, ONT

123pugsy wrote:
Rusty Nuts wrote:
"I have countless thousands of dollars tied up in my vehicle and i'm mad as hell that i feel i no longer have yet another freedom in this so called democratic society to drive my old vehicle whenever i want without the fear of being hassled on the side of the road somewhere."

Make it legal and you won't have to worry.

Pugs, For a lot of us that have already built and completed our vehicles compliance is not an option without costing thousands. My hand built custom Hot Rod Scotts x pipe exhaust was $1000. I have a 1969 vehicle with a ProStreet chassis with wheel tubs and narrow rear end that will not allow my exhaust to exit behind the rear wheels. There is no room for cats without scrapping the whole exhaust (cost $1000 + $1500 to do it again with cats). It angers me and I'm sure many others when people on this forum selfishly throw out comments like "Just make it legal". When addressing this issue I encourage people to consider the bigger picture and the hobby as a group. You can say "well you should have considered the law when you built your car". I like so many others had no knowledge of the Feb. 1 1999 passing of the act tying emissions to the YOM of the engine and not the YOM of the vehicle. Even if I had knowledge of this enactment the wording was so unclear and enforcement policy on the subject was not even available that on July 26, 2012 the MOE felt that they had to post the re-worded guidelines on their web site. This makes it clear that they knew they had a problem with how the act was written. IMO the compliance On/Before date should be July 26 2012 and not 1999. I guess I'm sayin how could I build my car to rules that were not understandable to me OR them. Now after 12 years they say we knew we had a problem but you still have to comply or else. TOTAL BS
On the subject of targeting:
This is from the MOE website.
About the Ministry
Ontario's Ministry of the Environment (MOE) has been protecting Ontario's environment for over 40 years. Using stringent regulations, targeted enforcement and a variety of innovative programs and initiatives, the ministry continues to address environmental issues that have local, regional and/or global effects.

Is my car a Hot Rod?
From MOE website"
What makes a car a “hot rod”?
Many people think a “hot rod” is any car modified to go faster. In Ontario, that’s not true.
By regulation, a hot rod is any car whose original motor has been replaced by a different type.
Type refers to the motor’s:
manufacturer
block size (displacement)
use in the vehicle’s model and model year*.
*Any motor that was available for that model and model year (for example, it may have come as an option) would not be a different type and, therefore, not qualify as a hot rod.
So if I replace my engine with an engine that is of the same manufacturer, same block size, and it was used in the model and model year....am I a hot rod?
If I follow their definition and I am not a hot rod then what "rules" do I follow?.

-- Edited by 69SS454 on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 09:45:51 AM

-- Edited by 69SS454 on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 10:08:35 AM

69SS454 · MILTON, ONT

It makes me sad that some think this is about the environment.

IMO this is where it started:

http://www.opp.ca/ecms/index.php?id=168

MOE is/was just part of a larger "Partnership" to end street racing...in the beginning

Then they found out how lucrative it could be.

Now we as hobbiests are caught up in this old initiative that has now turned into a potential cash cow for the MOE.

JMO

OOPS Sorry Pugs my bad.

Rusty if you are "suggesting " then again my bad. Mostly we are on the same page I'd say.

-- Edited by 69SS454 on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 11:13:14 AM

-- Edited by 69SS454 on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 11:19:40 AM

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

Rusty Nuts: I never said my vehicle wouldn't comply.

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

Jeep4752 wrote:
"Rusty Nuts: I never said my vehicle wouldn't comply."

Sorry, I did not mean to put words in your mouth. It is true that you did not say your vehicle doesn't comply but you also didn't say that it does. I am thinking that if your car does comply, and assuming you are going to be polite to the officer (as your post suggests you will) you have nothing to fear.

If the fear is simply of "being hassled on the side of the road" ... I live in Durham region, the rumoured MOE hotspot, I drive my car all the time (mid thirties coupe) and have yet to be stopped/hassled by the MOE. I have made my car legal with the addition of cats, egr, pcv, charcoal can/sealed tank so I am expecting my "meet and greet with the MOE" to be short and sweet. That being said, if I end up with the MOE inspector "Mr. Attitude", the "sweet" will NOT be a part of our meeting.

It would be interesting to know how much time the MOE spent with Pugsy the other weekend in Ajax when he passed their inspection.

Beachcat · WASAGA BEACH, ONT

While many of us are worried about the $1000s of dollars it's going to cost us to comply, what's really taking a hit and really what trumps everything else is the poor environment. Many nights I have manned the gate at cruise night and had to plug my nose at every 2nd or 3rd car that rolls into the lot. Maybe some are poorly tuned but more than likely they are pumping harmful products into the air due to lack of equipment. I'm not normally a big earth hugger but I can see who is in the wrong here. We have been getting a free ride here for years. Time to clean up our act boys. In the whole scheme of the environment, we are not important and certainly we should not be allowed to pollute. If you are out of pocket $1000s of dollars, that's tough but you're still polluting and you must fix that or don't drive your car.

What we need is a phased in approach over say the next 5 years or so. Cats for 2013, air pumps for 2014 etc. Give us our punishment a bit at a time. And have a facility where we can take our cars and find out exactly what they want us to do with it. Let's not allow this to be a cash grab for all the auto shops like Drive Clean has been.

Suck it up and belly up to the bar boys and girls. Let's weed out the earth killers a bit at a time so it doesn't hurt so bad.

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

69SS .... that was my comment, don't take it out on Pugsy :)

I was not aware of the emission laws when I built my car. I heard the rumours of the MOE task force targeting old cars and felt it was in my best interest to install the required emissions equipment in order to conform. I drive my car a lot and am not prepared to park it while waiting for the emission requirments to change (which may never happen).

I don't see it as me being "selfish" for equipping my car or suggesting that someone else do the same. If you don't feel you should equip your car with emission controls then don't, that is your option. As I see it, you can either park your car until the laws change (again, which may never happen, and certainly not with the way the petition is worded), drive your car as-is and risk the MOE fines, equip your car with emission controls, or find and install an early engine block.

Never did I say that I am happy with the present law. I completely agree that the law should be based on the year of the vehicle itself and not the year of the engine, however I am not going to park my car and wait for a change that may never come.

I can't add anymore to anthing I haven't already said so I shall remain silent ...

Molten · CAMBOURNE, ONT

69SS454, thanks for the link to this project erase idea. Take a good read thru this. So much grey erea, and not sure if anyone is enforcing this. ie)

"I want to paint this car a different colour
No Problem, just remember to get a new vehicle permit within 6 days. This also applies if you change the engine, fuel system, number of doors, number of axles or convert the body style.
HTA O.Reg 628 Section 3 – Vehicle modified – fail to apply for new permit - $85.00/$110.00"

Aren't all our cars modified just a bit!

"I want to lower the suspension and slam this car
No part of the tires may come into contact with the vehicle, no part of the vehicle can touch the ground and the front wheels cannot be visibly out of alignment.
HTA 70(3)(a) – Improper tires - $85.00/$110.00
HTA O.Reg 625 Section 5(b) – Reference Section for HTA 70(3)(a)
HTA O.Reg 611 Schedule 1 Section 3(5) – Reference Section for HTA 84 – Operate unsafe vehicle – No Set Fine, Maximum $20,000.00 fine."

Try to figure out what is exactly an improper tire!

MADSCI · NEWCASTLE, ONT

123pugsy wrote:
Rusty Nuts wrote:
"I have countless thousands of dollars tied up in my vehicle and i'm mad as hell that i feel i no longer have yet another freedom in this so called democratic society to drive my old vehicle whenever i want without the fear of being hassled on the side of the road somewhere."

Make it legal and you won't have to worry.

"It's called the law and we have to do what the law tells us to do. I just do not see the need to go off side with someone, where does it get you?"

I'll tell you where it got me once ... out of a ticket (not an emission ticket). Years ago I got really mouthy when a cop tried to write me a ticket. He flat out lied to me, I caught his lie and called him on it. End result ... no ticket. He knew he lied, he knew I knew he lied and he knew he wouldn't stand a chance in court. Off a ticket, that's where it got me.

I have heard that one of the MOE dudes is a real prick. If he gives ANYONE attitude he should expect it back. We have rights. If you know them, let them know too. LOUDLY if needed.

Thanks Rusty Nuts.
That sums it up nicely.

The MOE guy with the attitude is a former Durham Regional Cop, and from what i was told was let go for harassment, this same guy, pulled me over in 94 and tried to fine me for not having cats ( popped up on the in car computer while i was sitting in the back seat "check for catalytic converters its an easy fine") this is on a 69 Chevelle....also improper tires ( Mccreary's they were DOT and had plenty of tread) and he tried to tell me I had an illegal camshaft lol... among other things he felt were unfit for safety, so being a licensed mechanic i quite was polite and called him on it,so after making me wait two hours so he could have his supervisor stop buy so he could look the car over they let me go....

69SS454 · MILTON, ONT

You also cannot Legally SELL your non compliant vehicle.

From EPA: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90e19_e.htm#BK55

Definitions, Part III

21. In this Part,

“motor” means an internal combustion engine used in a vehicle; (“moteur”)

“motor vehicle” means a vehicle that uses or incorporates a motor as a source of power. (“véhicule automobile”) R.S.O. 1990, c. E.19, s. 21.

Motors and motor vehicles, environmental controls

Sale of motor vehicle that does not comply with regulations

22. (1) No person shall sell, or offer, expose or advertise for sale, a motor or motor vehicle that does not comply with the regulations.

Where system or device installed on motor vehicle

(2) Where a manufacturer installs on, attaches to or incorporates in any motor or motor vehicle, a system or device to prevent or lessen the discharge of any contaminant, no person shall sell, or offer, expose or advertise for sale, such motor or motor vehicle unless the motor or motor vehicle has such system or device so installed, attached or incorporated and such system or device, when the motor or motor vehicle is operating, complies with the regulations. R.S.O. 1990, c. E.19, s. 22 (1, 2).

So even if a person decided I would rather sell and get out of the hobby instead of spending thousands to comply....To Bad!

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

Just got back from the Woodward Dream Cruise. Great again this year. Saw so much stuff that would make the MTO, MOE and cops drool it was amazing. saw a BRAND NEW 1934 Ford Sedan Delivery with a new Coyote engine. I don't believe that was available in 1934. Beautiful rod.

I trust all the readers here have signed one.
There is still time to get more signatures. All the petitions are due in by August 31.
Get finished up and get them turned in. Mail them or drop them off, but don't let them sit.

the Kid.

70 chevelle · COBOURG, ONT

hey all

i was out getting some munchies tonight at 930 - 10:00 oclock and to my surprise the moe and town police were doing checks on peoples cars and trucks. i found it rather odd that the moe would be out at this time of night doing checks like this. i thought their hours of operation were the same as the rest of the government 9-5. they had about 6 cars and trucks pulled over when i went by the first time and the cops were out going up and down the stretch of street looking for things to pull over. i think the were targeting the older trucks and hondas because thats all i seen in the lot when i went by the first time and about 2 more times after that. again this struck me as odd being it that late at night.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Guess when it comes to a "TAX GRAB" overtime is allowed, & it's easy pickens at a that time of night as no one expects, same as outside a show or cruise on a week night. They make their pay in the 1st stop!!!!!

Hywayhauler · SUDBURY, ONT

Dear MOE,

You are not allowed to creep up any further than Parrysound on Hwy 69...hahaha

But seriously, I live in Sudbury, have had classic cars all my life, and never seen these goons around here...I even go to cruise nights open headers with my cutlass on occasion...

I think this is blown WAY out of proportion. I am glad I live up here in the north.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Check out the letter & regulations printed in "OLD AUTOS" latest edition,some of it a copy of what we have here!!! Also states in there doesn't matter what part of Ontario you live in "you must comply" so give them time, once they figure out that theres more $$$ to made else where in Province I'm sure they'll come a "visitin"!!! Don't think this "petition" is going to go anywhere, as the article from MOE looks like their "standing firm" & say "you have a "obligation" to make sure vehicles comply with "latest" rules!!!! Pre 1999 builds, they want "invoices" for purchase of engine & installation from a garage!!!as proof of when engine installed, YA RIGHT

poncho62 · ADMINISTRATOR

dualquadpete wrote:
Pre 1999 builds, they want "invoices" for purchase of engine & installation from a garage!!!as proof of when engine installed, YA RIGHT

Apparently, they have no idea what hot rodders do...We do our own work, most of the time anyways.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

Give me a second or two, I'm going thru the box marked 1997 trying to find the "invoice" for the engine I bought that I paid "CASH" for from a guy advertised in local paper!!! Next wil be the task of finding the bill from "JOE'S GARAGE" the following yr to have in custom fabricated [read "make it fit"] YA REALLY how many people would keep bills from 14or so years ago???Here a couple of pics. from "PETE'S Garage, cash no BILL!!! Matter of fact I haven't 'paid" my own bill yet, get the collection agency on "THAT ONE" Picture 081.jpg Picture 090.jpg

Torquewar · DORCHESTER, ONT

Well said pete, geez i am getting a headache from this thread. Guess its time i spend some money on parts i dont want to buy.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Modfather wrote:
Ok Boys Time To Shut This One Down it has been beat to death and we are all getting tired of it. Is there nothing else to talk about on this blog really???

Modfather;

The reason you're getting bored of this thread is because;

a- you're compliant ( I doubt it)

b-it's scares the crap out of you and you figure the problem will go away by burying your head in the sand( more likely)

c-you live in an area that probably does not have or will never have emission police hassle you ( also a possibility because I googled where the hell Victoria Harbour was)

If you lived where most of us do, you would change your tune. If you're tired of reading about emission stuff, then don't click on the link.

-- Edited by hemi43 on Thursday 30th of August 2012 09:01:29 AM

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

Ok Boys Time To Shut This One Down it has been beat to death and we are all getting tired of it. Is there nothing else to talk about on this blog really???

sdunford · Member

The latest old auto's published the main requirements this past week. It is basicly up to the disgression of the inspecting officer. If I put a 86 350 in my 36 chev. it would have to comply to 86 specs. IF the # were missing (decked block) he can still request me to have and etest I must be able to pass minimum emission specs of 1980 carberated car. I have put a pcv, breater tube, egr, and soon cats with charcole canister. I have progressive linkage with a duel carb tunnel ram, runs mainly on rear carb primarys until 40k. 30k required for rolling drive clean test. I will give you my test results soon.

Jeff Norwell · PALOOKAVILLE

We have NO sanctioning body or protective legislature to protect our rights......NONE.
We need one
Until we group together and have ONE voice..... we will continue to be picked off.
If you want this "hobby" to survive.... we need a voice to protect us.

.... or continue to be a sheeple.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

The SAVO [or whatever they call themselves] was "supposed" to be Lobbying this for us, but from one of the letters to editor in Old Auto's a mth or so ago it seems that the writer from SVAO was saying "this is the way it is,live with it" To me thats not lobbying for us, it's rolling over!!!! JUST GO BACK TO YR. OF VEHICLE!!!! Theres not enough cars in this classification to make a dent in the pollution, coming from the Ohio Valley that gets blown up here or 1 jet plane taking off from Toronto, but the Gov. can't get any $$$ from those groups???

Rusty Nuts · ONTARIO

Jeff Norwell wrote:
We have NO sanctioning body or protective legislature to protect our rights......NONE.
We need one
Until we group together and have ONE voice..... we will continue to be picked off.
If you want this "hobby" to survive.... we need a voice to protect us.

.... or continue to be a sheeple.

With this post specifically aimed at emission controls on older vehicles, I should point out to you that it is NOT within "our rights" to remove emission controls from any engine that was originally so equipped. That is the law.

As for the "sheeple" comment (quite insulting actually), speak only for yourself please. Based on your "sheeple" comment, I guess ALL automobile manufacturers are "sheeple" for caving in to gov't regulation and installing emissions controls in the first place.

If you'll please excuse me, I have some grazing to do.

Jeff Norwell · PALOOKAVILLE

Rusty Nuts wrote:
Jeff Norwell wrote:
We have NO sanctioning body or protective legislature to protect our rights......NONE.
We need one
Until we group together and have ONE voice..... we will continue to be picked off.
If you want this "hobby" to survive.... we need a voice to protect us.

.... or continue to be a sheeple.

With this post specifically aimed at emission controls on older vehicles, I should point out to you that it is NOT within "our rights" to remove emission controls from any engine that was originally so equipped. That is the law.

As for the "sheeple" comment (quite insulting actually), speak only for yourself please. Based on your "sheeple" comment, I guess ALL automobile manufacturers are "sheeple" for caving in to gov't regulation and installing emissions controls in the first place.

If you'll please excuse me, I have some grazing to do.

Relax Francis..... It's the internet.
I am sorry my humour hurt you so deeply .... please take a deep breath and call the human rights board.

dualquadpete · BLACKSTOCK, ONT

GOOD ONE!!!! I agree if the "CAR or TRUCK" had Emm. equipment orginally from factory, then YES it STAYS. If it's older & had no emm. 'stuff" & has had a "HEART transplant, then NO go by the yr . of vehical unless in registered as a KIT car etc. They are deleting the ones that had transplant before 1999 [if you can PROVE it & likely can't] so whats the difference if it was done Jan 1st. 2000????

atomsplitter · NEWCASTLE, ONT

Hey Jeff,
I thought that these emissions issues were not a problem for your "traditional ride"?

hemi43 · ONTARIO

dualquadpete wrote:
GOOD ONE!!!! I agree if the "CAR or TRUCK" had Emm. equipment orginally from factory, then YES it STAYS. If it's older & had no emm. 'stuff" & has had a "HEART transplant, then NO go by the yr . of vehical unless in registered as a KIT car etc.

This is the way the petition should have been worded. This is what John O'Toole should be addressing to the Environment Minister. The change in the law in 1999 F-ked everything up !!

Modfather · VICTORIA HARBOUR, ONT

That was all I was trying to say. the law has not changed since 1999. And yes I am compliant and yes my cars were and are built around the 1999 laws and yes there are MOE inspections here all the time. But they are certainly not targeting older cars. I have driven through inspections up here but the only thing they were targeting was diesel fuel along with the OPP and the Ministery of Finance. In fact they have been here several times this summer. The MOT also does a saftey blitz here at least twice a year. I still know of no one ever being singled out in a hot rod or custom.

Someone · BOWMANVILLE, ONT

I agree, too much repetition in this thread, anyways...

Something that i have not seen mentioned on here yet is that the inspectors have way too much say in what happens on the side of the road. (I believe the original intent of the petition was to simplify and clarify to make it alot clearer for both the inspectors and vehicle owners to understand the laws and how they are interpreted.) Here in lies the problem: it is left up to the inspectors discretion at the side of the road as to what is right and what is wrong with the emission's system on the vehicle he/she is looking at. Yes there are guidelines etc, but. Example: inspector says your '70's Chevy p/u is supposed to have a smog pump, you reply no it's not, inspector tells you to contact GM and ask them if it did. You get the letter from GM saying that engine is not supposed to have a smog pump, then you go to court. Judge reads letter from GM and then gives judgement: the inspector says that this engine is supposed to have a smog pump so put one on it or your getting an $800 fine.
People, there are serious issues with the entire setup, from the inspectors to the judges. The above story did happen btw. The inspectors have way too much say/power. Whats the point of getting a letter from the manufacturer when the judge sides with the inspector anyways? So now this guy has to install a smog pump to satisfy them.
I have had more than one person tell me this summer that it is illegal to add emission equipement to a vehicle that didn't have it to begin with, i.e.: a '66 Chevelle with a 230 straight six and the owner adds a catalytic convertor to the car. So what does this translate into what the guy above with the p/u that now magically needs a smog pump, when he gets pulled over next time by a different inspector that finds that hey, this engine isn't supposed to have a smog pump on it, see ya in court!......yup, just love personal interpretation!!

Jeff Norwell · PALOOKAVILLE

Atomsplitter wrote:
Hey Jeff,
I thought that these emissions issues were not a problem for your "traditional ride"?

It's not about my "Traditional ride"....I am concerned ..very concerned about the whole hobby in general.

We are regulated and taxed far too much.

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Jeff Norwell wrote:
Atomsplitter wrote:
Hey Jeff,
I thought that these emissions issues were not a problem for your "traditional ride"?
It's not about my "Traditional ride"....I am concerned ..very concerned about the whole hobby in general.
We are regulated and taxed far too much.

That's right !! And if we just sit back and not put up a fight we only have ourselves to blame.

427CARL · CLINTON, ONT

car wrote:

-- Edited by 427CARL on Saturday 24th of November 2012 07:02:29 PM

Gwillyville Kid · BRADFORD, ONT

A few of things before today's SVAO meeting with the M.O.E. guys in Claremont.
Did anyone contact MPP John O'Toole to invite or inquire as to whether he will be attending today's meeting?
Is someone bringing petitions for anyone who has NOT signed yet?
Did anyone compile a list of questions to ask? This would stop from having the same question asked several times, which will frustrate everyone.
Gentlemen, Decorum! We may find ourselves very frustrated today, but exercise restraint. Having everyone angry will serve no-one well and get us going the wrong direction. Patience Grasshopper.
Make sure your question is to the point of what you are asking. DO NOT RAMBLE! DO NOT assume they will understand what you are infuring or what you think you mean. Speak clearly and to the point. They will not ESP what you really meant. Do not use words you do not normally use. Make sure you ask a question that can be answered. I really doubt this will be completely resolved today, but it is a step in the right direction. AND as was previously stated, "a guy I know his brother's wife's neighbour's son" will only waste time and frustrate everyone. I sure hope some of the people with FIRST HAND experience are in attendance and speak up.
REMEMBER! Thank the guys from the M.O.E. after it is over. It was their Saturday too. They did not have to be there and they probably have families.Thank the SVAO guys for hosting this meeting, no matter how it goes. You only need 10 bucks to join and support SVAO.
See you this afternoon.
the Kid

Pint and a Pound · AJAX, ONT

Jeff Norwell wrote:
We have NO sanctioning body or protective legislature to protect our rights......NONE.
We need one
Until we group together and have ONE voice..... we will continue to be picked off.
If you want this "hobby" to survive.... we need a voice to protect us.

.... or continue to be a sheeple.

I thought we already had the SVAO (Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario) as our "group together and have ONE voice". Here is a link to their site www.svao.org

WTF is a sheeple?

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

hemi43 wrote:
Here's some interesting reading I got today;
It's a break down of this damn law that threatens ALL of our cars. If you're reading this, for Christ sake call your MP and complain. The only way we're going to win this is by flooding the desks of our MPs with angry calls and letters.
Ask him/her why is the Government attacking our cars when we only account for 1/2 % of vehicles, and are only driven on weekends usually going to some charity event.
Even if they pull you over and you're driving a non-emission controlled vehicle (1969 and older) and have the original engine, it will be at the discretion of the MOE officer whether you're emitting too much pollution, and they will make you go to get your vehicle tested ( even though there are no numbers to go by for the old cars).
This is pure harassment !!

-- Edited by hemi43 on Wednesday 13th of June 2012 10:59:03 AM

-- Edited by hemi43 on Wednesday 13th of June 2012 10:59:34 AM

I know this is an old thread, but I was wondering where you got this print out, and where I might get a copy?

Thanks

-- Edited by johnod on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 01:17:13 AM

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

All the information posted above is available from the Ministry of the Environment for Ontario website.

The basics are this:

If the car you are using left the factory with emission controls, they still need to be there. If the engine you are installing, left the factory with emission controls, they still need to be there. If both the car and the engine being installed left the factory with emission controls, the emission controls from whichever is newer need to be there.

'55 Chevy with '81 Camaro 350 engine installed: You need the emission controls from the '81 (because the engine came with emission controls from the factory)

'81 Camaro with a '55 Chevy 265 engine installed: You need the emission controls from the '81 (because the '81 came with emission controls from the factory)

'81 Camaro with a '96 Camaro engine installed: You need the emission controls from the '96 (since both came from the factory with emission controls, you need to install the emission controls from whichever is newer).

The only confusing part is crate engines. Since they didn't leave the factory with any emission controls on them, you don't need them if a crate engine is installed in a pre-emission era car (the car left the factory without emission controls and so did the engine). Install a crate engine in a '55 Chevy, you don't need anything. Install a crate engine in an '81 Camaro, I think you'll find you are required to still have the emission controls from the '81 Camaro on that engine since crate engines are considered factory replacement engines.

Unclear as to whether a Scott Shaffiroff 572, being sold as a "crate engine" is considered a "crate engine" by the Ministry of the Environment of Ontario as it could be viewed as a "race only" item and not allowed on the street.

-- Edited by DB Cooper on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 07:34:51 AM

hemi43 · ONTARIO

Bottom line, it will be at the discretion of the officer pulling you over because the law can be interpreted anyway they see fit. Best advice I can give is be courteous to them, or they will ruin your day.

johnod · SOUTHERN ONTARIO

Thanks I've looked on the site, but can't find this exact document, the first page is the one I really want.

As I read it, if motor was installed prior to 99 it is only required to meet 1980 standard and is exempt from having a CC, or ECE equipment.

So I'd like a copy for the glove box.

DB Cooper · ONTARIO

Sorry about that, I just went to the MOE of Ontario site and the site has completely changed. The information you are requesting used to be there.

Try this link www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_980361_e.htm and click on "emission control equipment for kit cars, rebuilt cars and hot rods". Hopefully the info you want is there somewhere.

One other option might be to contact the MOE directly (through email) and ask them specifically what the law is far as a "hotrod" where the engine was installed prior to 1999. Once you get your reply, print it out and keep that in your glove box. I think I have seen the head of the MOE's name posted on this site somewhere. Get an email directly from him and you should be good. Keep in mind, you'll need to prove the install was done before 1999. Good luck.

-- Edited by DB Cooper on Wednesday 16th of April 2014 09:13:23 AM